Denying AIDS: Conspiracy Theories, Pseudoscience, and Human Tragedy

Seeking Stories of AIDS Denialism

Have you or someone you know been harmed by AIDS Denialism? If you, or someone you care about, have been advised to stop taking HIV meds, ignore HIV test results, purchase a 'natural' cure etc., please email me.

All information will be kept confidential.

Tuesday, September 28, 2010

How AIDS Denialism Can Kill You

Ever wonder why so many of us take time from our days to rant about AIDS Deniers?

Well, it is because AIDS denialism is undermining our efforts to prevent and treat HIV infection. No one cares about a bunch of sad old nuts like Duesberg, Bauer, Rasnick, and Null. It is the people who listen to them that we care about. People who want to believe that HIV is harmless. Who want to believe that they can cure themselves with magic potions and home-made enemas.

Some who buy into AIDS Denialism get out in time to face their diagnosis. Others deny AIDS to their death.
To see the harm that AIDS Deniers are doing to each other, look no further than the discussion group at AIDS Myth Exposed.

A member recently wrote the following,

“I just got out of the emergency room after having to rehydrate myself intravenously. While there, stool samples were taken and it has been determined that I have Cryptosporidiosis in my intestines. My doctor called to tell me that with only 80 t-cells, this is no surprise. Upon doing some research on the internet, the parasite is responsible for wasting syndrome. This is my first "opportunistic disease" and it has me scared. It looks like this infestation is hard to get rid of - unless the t-cells get to be above 200. Food is going right through me - as are liquids. I'm doing my best to stay hydrated. I've had to call in sick from work and I don't have the cash to see an alternative doctor.

My brief history: Diagnosed "HIV" in 2002. "Aids diagnosis" in 2005. Tried two horrible cocktails since then. Became aware of the dissident movement and have been off of meds for 3 years now. And now, after researching the internet, I see I have to take some kind of "orthodoxy" steps: Get rid of the parasite with some harsh meds and then go on meds to get my t-cells above 200... Any insight?”

The responses to this guy’s plea for help range from the pathetic to the criminal.

...“So sorry to hear about your troubles. Obviously, you need to do whatever it takes to weather this storm and then you can take time to sort things out. You may well need to put yourself in the hands of an orthodox doc that you trust. They will no doubt treat you with antibiotics and put you on some sort of ARVs. You may have to do this since things are progressing rapidly. There is, however, from what I've read, little to indicate that antibiotics can help if one's immune system is severely compromised. It also seems that treatment can alleviate symptoms but not actually effect a cure.

You can also get yourself some of the well-known more natural substances known to have antibiotic, antiviral and antifungal properties. These include colloidal silver, oregano oil, olive leaf extract and coconut oil. I don't know if crypto responds to parasite cleanses probably designed for larger organisms, but there are several similar protocols which can be purchased that include wormwood, cloves and black walnut tincture. They might be worth a try.”

.....“An alternative strategy would be to restore the damaged intestinal ecology which must, in the overwhelmning number of cases, be a prior condition to having diarrhea. Even in the highly implausable scenario that an infection with cyrpto is active the qualifying factor is always that there is a pre existing weakened immunitity. That means not to put the cart before the horse because no matter want the existing tendency in the body to develope diarrhea in a person who has not been out of the country it is the condition of the weakened intestinal ecology and never a common pathogen which is issue.

Since RX drugs will greater damage the already damaged immunity a person must carefully and critically review their choices.

The most obvious choice to approach chronic diarrhea and weight loss once the known causes like antibiotic damage and travel out of the country is discounted is to restore the intestinal ecology. The approach of killing microbes is the last resort because the effects of these drugs are the single biggest factor in destroying ones health.

Ideas about T Cells like needing to have more than 200 as you mentioned have only 2 common important things to know. 1- there is no evidence that T Cell numbers correspond to any state of disease or health. 2- the evidence that being involved with the type of people who can test for t cells, namely doctors, can damage or kill a person is undisputedly true. By talking the type of T cell nonsense that you have be deceived into believing in you are in the biggest risk group - namely treatment by MD's with RX drugs. This type of extreme and dangerous approach is always the last therapy choice never the first or second.”

...“Intestinal problems and diarrhea were very common problems for sexually active gay men pre-AIDS. I can't remember how many times I was tested for parasites, or put on Flagyl presumptively because doctors didn't want to bother with stool specimens, or perhaps they didn't trust the labs ability to detect.

Recommending specific treatments based on the very limited information grz999 has presented, other than to caution about the dangers of HAART, is a pretty speculative business, if you ask me. What is obvious is how susceptible grz999 and other questioners still are to fear-based nonsense. Reading about that from others is helping me to recognize that susceptibility in myself.”

...."I am grateful to the dissident movement for educating me about the poisons out there (especially AZT and it's sister drugs). Because of this knowledge, I am in a much better place to manage my own HAART (should I decide to go on it temporarily) to kill whatever fungus or growth I have in my gut. For the record, I realize that testing "positive" simply means that I have 10 positive results to 10 proteins that have something to do with the immune system. I believe that a 10 for 10 positive result means something as well (as is my case). Since being involved with the movement, I have seen 4 deaths from the group b/c of their beliefs. Two guys believed that juicing was the answer - one friend (from Alive and Well) died in San Juan - trying to go all natural and "cleanse" his body."
Recognize the insanity of AIDS Denialism.

See a real doctor.

Find the courage to face your HIV infection.

Treat it using state of the science medicine.

Be an AIDS Realist, not an AIDS Denialist.


  1. Seth, this is very sad indeed. This person is describing a life-threatening condition (the prognosis for cryptosporidiosis + CD4<180 is 3-6 months to live). He or she is advised to avoid the only treatment that is known to work for this condition and to instead try treatments that are likely to accelerate the disease.

    As I mentioned to you, it is interesting that a number of the deniers admit to taking ARVs even while maintaining their denial!
    Fulano de Tal

  2. Some family member should sue the denialist asswipes for hastening the death of their loved ones. And I bet that a manslaughter charge is coming to those who dole out medical advice with nothing more than their thumbs up their asses.

  3. SueThem
    Interesting that you would suggest suing AIDS Deniers for wrongful death. JTD, a frequent commentator on this blog, has posted a story on the AIDS Denier Karri Stokely whose cousin apparently cares for her and is concerned about her neglectful health practices that are misinformed by Rethinking AIDS. Her cousin, who we only know as Todd, is just the type of family member that AIDS Deniers should be worried about. It is just a matter of time before the obvious crap that people are told, as pointed out above by Fulano. Although individuals on some blog cannot be held libel, an organization that propagates myths that lead to death surely can. Just a matter of time.

  4. Seth, this post that you have pointed out is very, very distressing and disturbing on many levels. The people at AME are so incredibly clueless not just about HIV science, but science in general.
    A poster at the thread calling "itself" lightanddarkbalance says that Cryptosporidium would only be the culprit if the poster had traveled outside the country, and most likely had to travel to a "third world country"! This is just crazy. Cryptosporidium is often found in fresh water, warm lakes, like the ones we have in Texas. Just last year here in Fort Worth, Texas we had a very large problem with crypotsporidium in a swimming hole called Burger's Lake. It made many, many people sick.
    Now I know that many Texans believe TX is a country unto itself, but I don't believe this is what lightanddark was referring to. It is just one glaring error in the many of that thread.
    When I read those people at AME discussing any health related item, I am torn between crying, laughing, screaming and pulling my hair out!! It is truly, truly sad that so many people turn to AME for health information.
    Also, the thread turned very angry as well with many of them turning on the original poster for admitting taking ARVs. It reminds me of the time John Boucher told me that Christine Maggiore herself told his partner, Rex Poindexter to not take ARVs while Rex was dying in the hospital! I have also read old threads of Ex~dissidents who were hammered by "old friends" when they admitted to having a change of heart regarding their belief in Denialism and ARVs.
    These denialists want to be respected for their decisions regarding their personal health, but God forbid they give others the same respect.

  5. It's worthwhile thinking about the likely course of events here and how this relates to the perpetuation of HIV Denial.

    It is likely that grz999 will stop posting messages to AME. He might get another opportunistic infection. He might die from AIDS. He might rethink his denial and go back on ARVs. Whatever the outcome it is unlikely that he will continue to generate cognitive dissonance for the denialists. grz999, who?

    What happens to HIV Denialists when they get sick. I suspect that most of them just fade away. Their messages saying how great they feel after stopping HAART of course remain on AME etc. If they manage to summon enough courage to confront their former friends then they are often attack and blamed for their own illness. They didn't follow the correct diet. They didn't avoid oxidants. They didn't do ozone therapy etc. When Jack Levine became ill and confronted the Denialists Fred Cline told him he was never a true Denialist and "Marcel Girodian" told him he was a pharmaceutical plant who just pretended to be a denialist for several years.

    The process naturally selects non-progressors and slow progressors who are then over represented in the active Denialist groups. The people who do progress fade away or are actively excluded.

  6. JTD
    You point out the hypocrisy of AIDS Denialists so well. These people have painted themselves into a corner of myths and fantasy thinking. There can be no internal consistency in a web of lies. Just more lies. This speaks to the heart of their psychopathology.
    You and I have spent so much time reading their crazy-talk it starts to sound less crazy. We start to see it as hypocrisy, inconsistency, convoluted lies. But it is really just crazy talk. Word salad. And it is recognized immediately as such by any rational thinker. AIDS Deniers think that they can take their cases to court. They think they are sane, rational, and right. Take them out of their Internet bubble and they are obviously insane. The court system has filters for weeding out the nut cases.
    JTD, AME is as close a thing to a Day Area that I have seen outside of a State Psychiatric Facility. if you are not familiar with such places do yourself a favor. Rent the classic Nicholson movie One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest. I bet you recognize some characters from RA and AME.

  7. Whenever one of the AME regulars develops a life-threatening AIDS defining illness like cryptosporidium, cerebral toxoplasmosis or CMV colitis and then seeks advice on their "health" pages it puts me in mind of a group of toddlers playing with a live hand grenade. It's really quite frightening.

    Invariably they have no grasp at all of the seriousness of the problem, and responses vary from blaming the poor sufferer "it's all because you took all those evil toxic antibiotics!" to ridiculous and frankly dangerous solutions like "stick a hose up your arse and wash it all out". There will be advice to take whatever meritless snake oil is currently in vogue on the net: wormwood, swimming pool disinfectant, megadoses of vitamins, ozone. HansSelyeWasCorrect will inevitably advise taking a stomach acid supplement because that cures everything. Someone (often Sadun Kal) will attribute the serious opportunistic infection to succumbing to the "nocebo effect" and urge the patient to renew their faith in the Truth of the Dissident Position. It's at this point you realise how close AIDS denialism is to some of the nastier and more insane religious cults.

    Chris is right that the denialists try to maintain their image as a happy healthy band of "long term non progressors" through a continual, miserable and often vicious process of attrition. People who challenge the illusion by changing their views, or by reluctantly starting the dreaded antiretrovirals or committing the ultimate sin of getting an AIDS defining illness are excluded and forgotten. It's the same kind of social pathology characteristic of cults.

    In fact, most of the "long term non progressors" among the most prominent denialists are nothing of the kind. Many have had AIDS defining illnesses followed by variable periods (up to a decade in some cases) on HAART which has saved their lives and partially restored their immune function. This period on treatment, of course, can then be blamed as the cause of any future AIDS related illness that occurs when they stop.

    AIDS denialism is the anti-matter of information, the obliterator of memory.

  8. I'm so very glad you (Seth) have written this book. I wish it was available (2002)and I bought it and read it. (I originally found out about the book via Poz Magazine/aidsmeds.)

    As an X-denialist, this book has given me the some insight into my denialism. I was diagnosed in 2002. You mention in your book how a person is naturally in denial when faced with a life threatening illness. Well, my denialism moved very quickly from the natural state of denial to Denialism. Influenced by my pre-exposure to Duesberg, Heal Toronto, AME and RA.

    When I was diagnosed, not only with HIV but had full blown Aids.

    Four years ago, I was hospitalized for three months.....thrush, weight-loss, dementia and host of other life threatening illnesses and had to relearn to walk. (still aided with a cane) Fortunately my denialism didn't kill me. Antivirals and my Aids Doc saved me.

    Your book as a resource, took on the Denialist movement in a clear and effective way but more importantly is, If a newly diagnosed person is questioning 'AIDS', giving them tools to make better choices then I did.

    Maybe you can't stop someone from 'Not' taking their Meds, but when something goes wrong with their choice (opportunist infection) they'll have the courage and knowledge to get the Meds and services they need.

    After I was out of the Hospital, I on three separate occasions encountered people that were just diagnosed. I thought at first I was not the best person to talk to about AIDS, but maybe I was. I told them honestly what I did as being a Denialist and to avoid going down that root (Denialism) and listen to the Aids Doctors.

    This book is not about the Nuts, it's for those newly diagnosed that need to read this book and 'they are the people we should care about' you mentioned before.

    Thanks so very much for helping me 'heal' my past and have a quality future. Today I had blood work done and picked up my Meds. Cocktail anyone!

    I've sent several emails to (Toronto)asking them to do a review of your book. So far no response. I just thought your book should be review in all gay papers everywhere. Why wait for a possible poz diagnosis, then seek Aids info. I think of your book is a handy guide book to the wacky galaxy of 'Denialism'.

  9. Shane
    Thank you!
    I spent the better part of two years working on Denying AIDS. Put lots on hold. The one thing that makes it worthwhile is people like you.
    Many people seem stuck in denialism and I am so glad that you are not! There are lots of excellent treatment options and so many more in the pipeline. Today is light years better than just 5 years ago. The AIDS Deniers would have you think that all there is mega-doses of AZT Monotherapy. Nothing could be more out of touch.
    Something I have said for over a decade is that I doubt there will ever be an HIV preventive vaccine. The genetics of HIV and its ability to evade immunity seem so complex I am not a vaccine optimist.
    But I do believe we will have a cure – the ability to eradicate the virus. HIV infection is now a chronic illness. HIV is manageable, like diabetes is manageable.
    I cannot thank you enough for your kind words about Denying AIDS.
    By the way Shane, don’t tell David Crowe but I was born not too far from Toronto… in Hamilton. I will have to get to Ontario sometime soon and do a book signing!
    Best regards!!

  10. Invariably they have no grasp at all of the seriousness of the problem, and responses vary from blaming the poor sufferer "it's all because you took all those evil toxic antibiotics!" ...

    ... and if you get pneumonia (including PCP) it will be your fault because you didn't treat it with antibiotics.

    You can't win. The Denialists will find some way to blame you while pretending that HIV has nothing to do with it.

    When her three year old daughter died from AIDS Christine Maggiore rationalised it by saying that she wanted to "go home". That's right. Nothing to do with untreated HIV, PCP etc. Nothing to do with her own Denialism. Her daughter had simply decided to "go home".

  11. Every time I read that thread, I see more crazy, meaningless shit, and I wonder where the hell people get such mis~information. How about this quote from Seth's post:
    "For the record, I realize that testing 'positive' simply means that I have 10 positive results to 10 proteins that have something to do with the immune system. I believe that a 10 for 10 positive result means something as well (as is my case)."
    I'm so glad this "person" (since "idiot" would be considered ad hominen, not just an accurate assessment of this "person" based on the non~sensical statement) has gone on "the record".
    That statement is realy, really perplexing. Is this person somehow referring to a Western Blot confirmatory test? He/She can not be referring to ELISA. At least WB does detect proteins, but I'm lost about the number 10. It's just one more example of denialists spouting 1% fact and 99% guess.

  12. Todd, I reckon Fulano or Chris could probably explain it better and more accurately than I can, but I think this person was talking about ten bands on a Western Blot.

    A HIV Western Blot test kit consists of a membrane embedded with bands of individual HIV proteins: the gag proteins p17, p24, p40, and p55, the pol proteins p31, p51, and p66, and the env glycoproteins gp41, gp120 and gp 160. Usually ten of them, although some kits may contain fewer.

    These proteins are derived from purified lysates of cultured HIV virions. (You know, that virus that's never been isolated.) You can also produce HIV proteins by genetic engineering - sticking the relevant bit of proviral gag, pol or env gene into a bacterium and getting it to produce the protein you're after. This is often cheaper, easier and results in a purer product than culturing virus (which has never been proven to exist) and chopping it up (even though what you are chopping up doesn't exist).

    The test consists of applying diluted serum from the person to see whether it contains antibodies that react to each of these ten proteins. A negative WB is one where no antibodies react to any of the proteins.

    An indeterminate WB is one where there might be antibodies reacting or cross reacting with bands, but not enough of the right bands to make a confident diagnosis of HIV infection. Most indeterminates consist of a single band, usually cross reactions with p17, p24 or p55.

    When someone has been infected with HIV they start to produce antibodies to each of the proteins in succession. Usually the first ones to appear are to gp 160, gp 120, p24 and p17, followed by the others later. p 31 is usually the last to appear. Over time, the antibody response to particular proteins can decline. In other words, it's a dynamic situation, and interpreting a WB means recognising which patterns are characteristic of which stages following infection, and which are likely to be the result of cross reactions. Usually you can resolve indeterminate results by repeating the test a few weeks later and seeing if the band pattern changes.

    This person was saying they had antibodies to all ten of the HIV proteins on the Western Blot. That's unequivocal evidence of HIV infection.

  13. I have been reading Henry Bauer’s blog. What is it with you and Henry Bauer? He seems nearly obsessed with you and then when I see your blog you seem just as obsessed with him. What is the deal?

  14. TaskMan
    Thanks for commenting.

    Henry Bauer was upset when I revealed that I had used my nickname Joe to communicate with him while researching my book Denying AIDS. He is a central figure in my book because he illustrates the worst of AIDS Denialism. He claims that he can prove HIV does not cause AIDS by whipping up a bunch of mumbo-jumbo from health statistics that he either does not understand or uses to spread lies.

    Henry Bauer is also upset because I say he is one of several old German men who have their heads up Peter Duesberg’s butt. It is not the placement of his head that he is upset about, but because I say he is German. See, Bauer is really Austrian-born. His family left Austria when he was a young boy, so that must be why he fails to realize that Austria was incorporated into the Third Reich and ceased to exist as an independent state in 1938. From about when Bauer was born in 1931 (yes, that long ago) Austria was essentially Germany. Hitler himself was born in Braunau Am Austria. The truth is upsetting to Henry Bauer because he a Denialist and Denialists are anti-truth.

    I remain convinced that some of the AIDS Deniers merely stand with Duesberg out of some sick nationalist loyalty. However, I do not believe that is Henry Bauer’s motive. Rather, Henry is in it for the attention. He has a following a few hundred lost souls who wish their HIV status was an illusion, like the man discussed in this posting. That is more attention than Bauer has gotten in his entire sad career of chasing Big Green Monsters in Scottish Waters. Henry Bauer is now part of a small group of 'academics' how are undermining public health by spreading misinformation about HIV/AIDS.

    If you read Bauer’s blog, be sure to visit his website where he displays his entire history of pseudoscience and homophobia.

  15. Snout,
    I think you handle your explanations perfectly. Yes, I know the WB, but I had never heard of someone reacting to all ten bands. That's what was throwing me.
    If this person has reacted to all ten bands, then I guess that means he really does NOT have that ghosty, fakey virusy thing called HIV that does not exist!

  16. Seth, I'm not sure how useful nationality is in sorting out the bizarre mess of HIV/AIDS denialism, although there are a variety national AIDS denialist clusters including among Greeks, Canadians, Germans, Brits, South Africans and, I'm ashamed to say, Australians. As well as amongst you Yanks, of course. I still reckon most of the prominent Italian "denialists" are actually taking the piss, but maybe that's just me. I reckon sensible people like the Chinese and Indians are watching the whole internet phenomenon of denialism, and scratching their heads and thinking WTF??

    Among us Aussies you'd have to include Huw Christie (died of AIDS in 2001), Val Turner (Pretender Apparent to the throne of World Supreme Uber-Denialist - once the jackals have finished Duesberg off), Eleni Anytime-Papadopulos (Val's stalking horse and anyway let's count her among the Greeks) and Henry Bauer (well technically he was born in Austria not Australia and anyway he's a Yank these days not an Australian citizen now so let's wash our hands of him).

    My main interest in Henry is partly that as an Aussie I feel kinda responsible for inflicting him on the world, but also because he is the most internet-active denialist with (former, irrelevant) academic status.

    He's made it quite clear that he is not interested in testing his bullshit ideas with real scientists in the peer reviewed literature, or even with informed rational discussion on the net. He's shamelessly going straight for the tightly controlled mass media PR approach, targeting internet consumers with insufficient scientific background to easily pick why his ludicrous claims are bogus. He particularly goes for vulnerable HIV positive people struggling with making sense of their health, and does so in an emotionally manipulative way.

    I think that for someone with pretensions to being a scientist to pull this kind of crap stunt is abusive and morally reprehensible. Henry still doesn't get it.

    But that's why I set up my blog.

    He chose to make the internet his sandbox. That's where I meet him.

    Bucket and spade, anyone?

  17. Snout

    You are right about AIDS Denial having far reach. There are actually networks of denialists. Not that Bauer understands the concept of a network. He as much as admits having no clue what a network is and that may explain his nutty misunderstanding of HIV epidemics.

    What happened with me was I became immersed in the Duesberg Network which is almost entirely made up of German cronies and Berkeley sympathizers. Not entirely, but almost entirely. In Denying AIDS, I would not have included Bauer in the former, but he confirmed speaking German and Austria was Germany when he was young lad, so why not? But I am the first to say that Old Henry is motivated by a starved ego and a soft brain, not the German Thing, like Klaus, for example.

  18. Seth, virtually no Austrians born during the Anschluss era would admit German nationality, since that unification was forced by the Nazis (although with a lot of eager Austrian collaboration). So, with apologies to all Austrians, Henry Bauer is one of yours.

    Back to the 10 proteins issue, the quote from AME shows how denialists can have their cake and eat it too. It is a short step from that quote to one that would say "HIV doesn't exist, and doesn't cause AIDS. I tested positive for antibodies to 10 non-specific proteins that over a period of years can destroy my immune system and which I acquired when body fluids of someone who also tested positive for antibodies to those 10 proteins came in contact with my blood or mucous membranes."

    Fulano de Tal

  19. I read on doctor's blog, a professor in science, that he has proof that HIV does not cause AIDS. If I test HIV+ and ignore it and have unprotected sex and infect someone, I can and will be prosecuted in my state for attempted manslaughter.

    Is the Professor libel?
    Can the Professor be considered an accomplice? Is that reckless endangerment? Is there accountability for a what a Professor says and does?

    What if I decide to not take medications for my HIV infection and I get sick? And what if my not taking medications increases my chances of infecting others. Is the misinformation spread by the Professor fraud? Can he be held accountable?

    These are not hypotheticals.

  20. I wonder, if Grz999 is convinced not to take ARVs, will they delete that thread if he dies of "mysterious" immunesuppression-related disease? Will they say he secretly took ARVs and that's what killed him, even if never takes them? Sad.
    On the other hand I find it both sad and hypocritical that someone from Alive and Well would go against their own teachings and take ARVs after preaching to their sheep to avoid them.

  21. On the other hand, I find it more likely that they will simply stop mentioning him like they did with Joe, a former AME moderator. Carter made some comment a while back when I asked how he was that if I looked Joe up I'd "find exactly what you want to".

  22. Joe Mandinski hasn't posted for well over a year, maybe longer now, his ID was JoeM8000. Given that his last posts were about having toxoplasmosis and stopping treatment for it, the possibilities would seem bleak unless he started ARVs and didn't want to admit it to the board.

    Jimbo's case is another one of the more depressing recent examples, CMV colitis is not something to be taken lightly to say the least and he was also reporting symptoms of pneumonia before he stopped posting - I think Grz999 asked how he was doing but he didn't respond. I don't know how exactly to describe the psychological impact of reading threads like that, but it's not good.

  23. Sadly, I believe it was Joe who once said on AME that there were no untreated controls in ARV trials and thus they (HIV+ denialists not on meds) were the control. I guess it is easy to keep the delusion going when you selectively forget their deaths.

  24. Was Joe Brian Carter's partner? That Joe?

  25. Oh, God, I hope not! That would mean Carter is about on the same level of denial as Maggiore. Can you imagine your partner dying and remaining loyal to the cause that killed him? Again, it has to be ego and a sense of power those denialists cling to. WOW! Can you imagine the power of being the AME Moderator? It's electrifying!
    There really is a deep, sad pathology at work here that I will never be able to fathom. I mean, I can deny my bills for a while, but not my health!


    Sandi Lenfestey was a member of HEAL San Diego.

  27. Former HEAL San Diego board member Jerry Colinard, died July 4.

  28. Awareness with HIV is very necessary to us. It can kill us in no time. So proper knowledge in regards with this disease is very needed. You can test yourself if you have this kind of illness by using ELISA kits. It can identify many antibodies as well as virus in your body.


  30. AME doesn't even exist, hasn't for years.

    So why are you guys lying ?