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Denying AIDS: Conspiracy Theories, Pseudoscience, and Human Tragedy

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Wednesday, December 8, 2010

Luc Montagnier: Off the Deep End?


Trial draws fire:  Nobel laureate to test link between autism and infection.
by Declan Butler
Published online 8 December 2010 | Nature 468, 743


Luc Montagnier is applying unorthodox ideas to the treatment of autism. With support from the Autism Research Institute (ARI), based in San Diego, California, the Nobel laureate is about to launch a small clinical trial of prolonged antibiotic treatment in children with autism disorders. The trial will also use techniques based on Montagnier's research into the notion that water can retain a 'memory' of long-vanished pathogens, and that DNA sequences produce water nanostructures that emit electromagnetic waves, published last year. But experts are critical and worry that the nobelist's status may lend unwarranted credibility to unconventional approaches to autism. 

The planned pilot trial in France - funded by a US$40,000 grant from ARI - will screen around 30 children with autism disorders and 20 or so controls for bacterial infections, and then test whether months of antibiotic treatment improve the children's condition. Montagnier, who shared the 2008 Nobel prize for physiology or medicine for the discovery of HIV, concedes that there is no solid scientific evidence that infection causes or contributes to autism, but he argues that many parents and physicians have observed "spectacular" benefits from prolonged treatment. Stephen Edelson, director of ARI, says he's "very excited" about the "cutting-edge, groundbreaking" study.


Catherine Lord, a clinical psychologist working on autism at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, says that the trials are "not mainstream science". Lord says that many of the widely practiced alternative medicine treatments for autism - including dietary modification, nutritional supplements and chelation therapy - are "semi-medical, not evidence-based science, and more pseudoscience."


Edelson, however, says that there are so many forms of autism and so much that is not known that "we need to study every angle". Criticisms of the science base of alternative approaches "probably would have been true were it ten years ago", he says, but critics don't appreciate how much research has been done since.


"I'm just interested in helping these children," Montagnier says. He acknowledges that many mainstream scientists are sceptical of his work, but defends his ideas. "In 1983, we were only a dozen or so people to believe that the virus we had isolated was the cause of AIDS."

"I'm just interested in helping these children."
Since then, Montagnier has supported non-mainstream theories in AIDS research that have put him at odds with other scientists. Most recently, he has argued that strengthening the immune system with antioxidants and nutritional supplements needs to be considered along with antiretroviral drugs in fighting AIDS, in particular in Africa.


"Montagnier's embrace of pseudoscientific and fringe agendas over the past few years has been seized on by AIDS denialists and other fringe groups, who make the case that Montagnier now supports their crazy views," says John Moore, an AIDS virologist at Cornell University in New York. Montagnier says that AIDS denialist groups misrepresent his thinking.


The autism trial enters a new area of controversy. The Infectious Disease Society of America have reviewed long-duration antibiotic treatments in Lyme disease, and concluded in April that the "inherent risks of long-term antibiotic therapy were not justified by clinical benefit". Montagnier acknowledges that safety concerns exist, but argues that opposition to long anti-biotic treatments can also be "dogma". The trials will need to be cleared with the relevant ethics and regulatory bodies, he notes, and will include careful precautions and surveillance. "Expert physicians have learned to avoid side effects and to choose the right regimen," he says.


Another element of the trial is also attracting scepticism. Besides screening the children for pathogens with conventional DNA-amplification techniques, the researchers will use a diagnostic test based on the controversial idea championed by the late French scientist Jacques Benveniste, who claimed that water can retain the memory of substances it contained even after they have been diluted away. Studies have failed to confirm the claim, but Montagnier thinks that the 'memory' structures in the water can resonate with low-frequency electromagnetic signals, which he hopes can be transmitted over the Internet. He claims that very dilute solutions of pathogen DNA also emit such signals, and he intends to use this as a sensitive 'biomarker' for chronic infection.

26 comments:

  1. Interesting good to hear about this research you may find this interesting too
    might be interested in watching this u tube video

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoEsgLyN2-0

    The first time I really thought about the Lyme Autism link was probably when I
    attended the LDA conference in 2008 and listened to Dr Bransfield's two
    excellent presentations both of which are still available on his website and
    definitely worth seeing if you haven't already done so. Infact they are well
    worth revisiting even if you have seen them once because there is so much
    information on there pity SOC doesn't spend more time listening and less time
    giving off her narrow minded opinions.

    As well as the above video I came across two more which are also worth watching
    on Autism/Lyme

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6n14D9Qtc9s&feature=player_embedded

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJtCTpbj3FE&feature=related

    Dr Bransfield published about The association between tick-borne infections,
    Lyme borreliosis and autism spectrum disorders

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17980971?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEn\
    trez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum


    'Chronic infectious diseases, including tick-borne infections such as Borrelia
    burgdorferi may have direct effects, promote other infections and create a
    weakened, sensitized and immunologically vulnerable state during fetal
    development and infancy leading to increased vulnerability for developing autism
    spectrum disorders.

    A dysfunctional synergism with other predisposing and contributing factors may
    contribute to autism spectrum disorders by provoking innate and adaptive immune
    reactions to cause and perpetuate effects in susceptible individuals that result
    in inflammation, molecular mimicry, kynurenine pathway changes, increased
    quinolinic acid and decreased serotonin, oxidative stress, mitochondrial
    dysfunction and excitotoxicity that impair the development of the amygdala and
    other neural structures and neural networks resulting in a partial Klüver-Bucy
    Syndrome and other deficits resulting in autism spectrum disorders and/or
    exacerbating autism spectrum disorders from other causes throughout life.

    Support for this hypothesis includes multiple cases of mothers with Lyme disease
    and children with autism spectrum disorders; fetal neurological abnormalities
    associated with tick-borne diseases; similarities between tick-borne diseases
    and autism spectrum disorder regarding symptoms, pathophysiology, immune
    reactivity, temporal lobe pathology, and brain imaging data; positive reactivity
    in several studies with autistic spectrum disorder patients for Borrelia
    burgdorferi (22%, 26% and 20-30%) and 58% for mycoplasma; similar geographic
    distribution and improvement in autistic symptoms from antibiotic treatment.

    It is imperative to research these and all possible causes of autism spectrum
    disorders in order to prevent every preventable case and treat every treatable
    case until this disease has been eliminated from humanity.'

    ReplyDelete
  2. Thank you Joanne

    I think this is all very interesting.
    I posted it here because Dr. Montagnier is an interesting figure in AIDS denialism. He has certainly endorsed some fringe ideas, like homeopathy, but he has never suggested that HIV does not cause AIDS. And yet, AIDS Denialists use him in their rather insane argument that HIV is harmless.

    So what about autism?

    Unlike AIDS, we do not know what causes autism. Unlike AIDS, every possible alternative explanation has not been ruled out.
    Unlike AIDS, there are many forms of autism..hence a spectrum.

    I think examining all ideas is essential, even those that seem unlikely...just not over and over and over again. Lets not leave any stone unturned. But once turned, lets move onto the next stone.

    My AIDS Denialist readers may jump in here ...but maybe not. This could be just too logical for even them to weigh in on.

    Thanks again!

    ReplyDelete
  3. Seth - there is nothing too logical for AIDS Denialists. A perfect example is a recent email that Celia "Batshit Crazy" Farber sent yesterday. As the email shows, she is back to the attention-whoring self that she never grew out of. The less relevant these fools become, the more desperate they show themselves to be:



    Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 22:58:20 -0800 (PST)
    From: Celia Farber
    Subject: Re: 23rd World AIDS Day- we are united!
    To:


    A conservative estimate holds that 300,000 were killed by AZT alone. It doesn't surprise me that you are being driven mad by guilt, for what you have been complicit in.

    The crap you write is not to be believed. Do you believe it?

    Stop insulting the dead, and their families, who know all to well what killed them.

    There is no monetary compensation possible for the chemical murder of loved ones, cut down in the prime of their lives.
    You people are mad.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Well, i do have contention with you Seth, when you say there are not different kinds of AIDS. There are... One need only compare African AIDS verse AIDS in the West to see vast differences, for example, the speed of morbidity, the associated symptoms, even how its diagnosed. Even AIDS soley in the West is different, when people are dying of vastly different reasons... You can argue that the cause is the same, but then how do you know that the cause is not also the same for all autism cases?

    And while true that Montagnier claims a link between HIV and AIDS, he also suggests that HIV infection alone is not sufficient to cause AIDS by itself. A HIV+ person needs to consider nutrition, exercise, and all that other good stuff before feeling the need to go on a lifelong regimen of toxic meds.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Tony
    The underlying cause of AIDS is the same..in every case of AIDS (regardless of the opportunistic illness) there is a compromised immune system - most obviously depleted CD4/T-Helper lymphocytes. But you already know this.

    I should probably watch my words a little more carefully...the opportunistic illnesses do differ from place to place and population to population. So AIDS in Africa is different than AIDS in the US in that respect. BUT the cause of AIDS, HIV infection, is the same and it is not so different place to place.

    As long as the HIV+ person is informed and not misinformed, or buying into myths and pseudoscience, I agree that taking lifelong drugs with serious side-effects may not be the thing for you. I respect that. But the choice should be clear - not confused by the rantings of crazy people on the internet.

    ReplyDelete
  6. One need only compare African AIDS verse AIDS in the West to see vast differences, for example, the speed of morbidity...

    That's nonsense. Median survival with untreated HIV infection is almost identical in Africa as in the West. And survival with AIDS is very similar too, when you take into account differences in the stage at which it is diagnosed and the availability of treatments for the opportunistic diseases.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18032940

    The major differences in progression to AIDS and survival with AIDS are related to access to quality antiretroviral treatment, and other medical care.

    ...the associated symptoms, even how its diagnosed.

    Again, this is rubbish. South Africa, Botswana and the other high prevalence countries of southern Africa use the same opportunistic illness criteria that are used in the west in the diagnosis of AIDS. They also use multi-test algorithms to diagnose HIV infection, although the preferred tests vary from place to place, just as they vary in Western countries as well. The US alone has more than a dozen different FDA-approved HIV test systems.

    The major difference in AIDS-defining opportunistic disease patterns between Africa and the West is with respect to tuberculosis. TB is rare among westerners with AIDS because very few westerners carry latent TB or are exposed to it in their daily life - it is virtually extinct in the first world. However, it is an extremely common infection in subsaharan Africa, and Africans with AIDS are therefore at much higher risk of developing active disease from daily exposure or from reactivation of latent infection.

    And while true that Montagnier claims a link between HIV and AIDS, he also suggests that HIV infection alone is not sufficient to cause AIDS by itself.

    He does? In 2010? What other factor or factors do Montagnier claim are necessary to cause AIDS, other than HIV infection?

    ReplyDelete
  7. Here's a link from the vaunted orthodoxy site, The Body, in which the specialist notes a difference in how fast HIV progresss in HIV1 verse HIV2.

    I would've been more accurate if i had said there are differences in HIV, not differences in AIDS.

    http://www.thebody.com/Forums/AIDS/Meds/Archive/Misc/Q171744.html

    ReplyDelete
  8. Good to see Seth open up an attack on Prof Luc then go in to back peddle mode only to be attacked by Snout the AIDS attack dog.

    Fact; there are vast differences between African and Western AIDS and the course of morbidity/mortality. To state otherwise Snout simply illustrates his total adherence to dogma and not common sense or published fact. This shows his true nature as an activist.

    Good to see the orthodox run true to form attempting to attack Montagnier in another forum just as they do when anyone strays from the fold of their pet beliefs. You could bet that even if Gallo came out tomorrow and said that HIV required Co-factors to initiate AIDS, he'd be subject to the same ridicule. This is one of the reasons this sole HIV/AIDS paradox and "it's the virus stupid" mentality has endured. It's a total Bushism where you're either with us or against us and a prevalent quirk of the US mentality on any subject. It's this total inability to think in shades of grey and have an arrogant self righteous opinion that is preventing any major breakthroughs in this horrid disease.

    The reality is that only the US is actually suffering from HIV, the rest of the planet just gets sick. I'm sure the retro-boffins will be attempting madly to pin Autism on a retro virus too, just as they are on obesity, diabetes, arthritis yada yada yada, they don't "know" anything else to do.

    The saddest fucks of all are the parasites like Seth trolling the grants system to make their livings off this misery.

    Shame, shame, shame

    ReplyDelete
  9. Hey, How come Luc won the Nobel Prize, but Gallo the Rat the did not?

    --Your friend, Bill

    p.s. I like Luc -- he's a free-thinker

    ReplyDelete
  10. Here's a link from the vaunted orthodoxy site, The Body, in which the specialist notes a difference in how fast HIV progresss in HIV1 verse HIV2.

    Tony, HIV-1 and HIV-2 are different viruses.

    You seem to be saying that HIV-1 is western HIV and HIV-2 is the African version. This is, yet again, nonsense.

    Both viruses originate in Africa, from different clades of SIV endemic to non-human primates.

    HIV-1 is the more common cause of AIDS (by orders of magnitude) not only in the west, but also throughout Africa. HIV-2 is largely restricted to parts of west Africa and southern Europe, but it is not the most common cause of AIDS anywhere.

    I think you are getting confused.

    Good to see Seth open up an attack on Prof Luc then go in to back peddle mode only to be attacked by Snout the AIDS attack dog.

    Err... Anonymous I was trying (perhaps futilely) to correct some confused misinformation by Tony. I don't always agree with Seth (or with anyone else necessarily), but I certainly haven't "attacked" anything he's said here. Trolling Fail.

    Fact; there are vast differences between African and Western AIDS and the course of morbidity/mortality. To state otherwise Snout simply illustrates his total adherence to dogma and not common sense or published fact.

    Well no, I cited one of numerous epidemiological studies providing data on progression rates for HIV among untreated Africans compared to untreated western cohorts. You on the other hand have simply repeated bullshit and insisted this is "Fact".

    Good to see the orthodox run true to form attempting to attack Montagnier in another forum just as they do when anyone strays from the fold of their pet beliefs. You could bet that even if Gallo came out tomorrow and said that HIV required Co-factors to initiate AIDS, he'd be subject to the same ridicule.

    No one is "ridiculing" Montagnier here for his views on HIV. And if Gallo said that HIV requires co-factors to initiate AIDS, then I think most sensible people would respond, "Interesting claim - now what evidence is there to support such a statement?" And such a claim would be accepted or rejected based on that evidence, not just because of what Gallo or Fauci or Montagnier or anyone else thought.

    Of course, considering the evidence for a claim rather than the person making the claim is anathema to ranting nutters like Anonymous.

    ReplyDelete
  11. "And if Gallo said that HIV requires co-factors to initiate AIDS, then I think most sensible people would respond, "Interesting claim - now what evidence is there to support such a statement?" And such a claim would be accepted or rejected based on that evidence"

    Bingo! The problem is that denialists don't work that way. They would prefer to rely on who they want to believe and build conspiracy theories rather than look at actual evidence. The evidence that Montagnier produced on HIV has been repeated by other labs and has stood the test of time. Thus it is accepted. The evidence for memory of water, ect...well not so much.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Yes, Indeed! Montagnier was, is, and always will be a bit Bat-Shit Crazy, though I don't think he is or ever was quite as whacked out as his comrades in arms, such as Gallo, Fauci, JP Moore, along with their followers, such as Seth, Snout, poodles, J Todd, et al).

    What a bunch of herd following sheeple.

    ReplyDelete
  13. I just love that Montagnier says that water has a memory. If that is true, it means water has a higher IQ than most denialists. Actually, even if it's not true, water still has a higher IQ than most denialists!
    JTD

    ReplyDelete
  14. Anonymous
    Go ahead and swim up steam, following Duesberg, Rasnick, and the other two Psychotics with advanced degrees. But get behind Crowe and Bauer, and the other pseudoscientists. And while you there, pay your respects to the lost too soon Maggiore, the unnecessarily lost baby Eliza Jane, and the soon to be lost Stokely.

    Now go, please.

    Me, I will follow the science. Thank you very much.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Me, I will follow the science. Thank you very much.

    Hah!LOL!

    You fools don't follow science -- you are dogmatic sheep. Montagnier already has said HIV is necessary, but no sufficient to cause AIDS and he has said that if you have a good immune system you can easily thwart this "deadly" retrovirus, that can't even be found, except indirect surrogate markers.

    But, what do I know? I'm just..

    Your friend, Bill

    ReplyDelete
  16. THOCOA

    The High Orthodox Church of AIDS

    Donate today! money urgently required to run a dubious drug trial in a backwater African Nation. Results will be posted....or not, depending on the outcome.

    2 for 1 Neviripine deal, today only!

    Did I mention obesity is scientifically proven to be caused by a retro virus and not calorific intake, it's the virus stupid not a lifestyle decision. We do however have a treatment. AZT, guaranteed to waste away those unwanted pounds.

    latest news! XMRV, linked to......ah nothing at all.

    Are they called retro virus' because they all appeared in the 70's and 80's? I saw an EM of one budding the other day, it was wearing a paisley shirt no less, we isolated it by centrifuging on a mirror ball under strobe lights.

    Start an orthodox blog, money available from the NIH under the health communications grants scheme, get yours now.

    Bye $eth

    ReplyDelete
  17. Seth - wait! They also can get behind highly qualified fired ex-cops with no education like Clarkie Baker and others who deny global warming, call Pres Obama a Kenyan Marxist, etc!
    Of course! If you follow science - you are a sheep. But if you follow nonsense, you are.....uhhhhh.....

    ReplyDelete
  18. THOCOA
    There is half hope for your denialism...

    You should take your Thorazine. It costs practically nothing and will help clear your thoughts. You know, the ones about how you think everyone keeps looking at you because you know THE truth.

    As for your stupidity, there is no treatment for that.

    ReplyDelete
  19. I wonder how Karri Stokely is doing? She wrote on Nov 26 that she had done 21 hyperbaric oxygen treatments with no progress. HOWEVER, she wrote, the next 20-30 she will be cured. Well, it's been an additional 15, which means she should be half way to cured. I wonder when she will update us with the good news?
    JTD

    ReplyDelete
  20. Dr. Alex, obviously $eth acting out his alter ego as a psychiatrist making diagnoses once more, not quite as limp as Joseph Newton though. Just how many multiple personalities do you have $eth? I'd think you should take some of your own medicine before attempting to give it away.

    And where's DeShong, he even named his dog after you, or was that Olivia, or did you come up with Newton from Olivia, oh it all gets so incestuous with you orthodoxies forming circles everywhere.

    ReplyDelete
  21. I wonder how Kim Bannon is doing? Any news on her situation?

    ReplyDelete
  22. Just came across a fantastic article on denialism!!

    http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/about.php

    ReplyDelete
  23. Kralc, the Hoofnagles' article dates back to the olden days when denialists used to try to actually construct their idiotic arguments - using the standard rhetorical devices of Conspiracy, Selectivity (cherry-picking), Fake experts, Impossible expectations (also known as moving goalposts), and General fallacies of logic.

    Hoofnagle et Hoofnagle 2007 (1) is of course the definitive primer on the subject.

    Caj 2009 (2) and (3) is also essential reading for anyone thinking about engaging denialists on the internet.

    Unfortunately, the quality of arguments by the denialst trolls who frequent this blog rarely achieve even that level of sophistication these days. They are mostly just low-level drunken, incoherent, stream-of-consciousness rants (see Anonymous and Bill, above for examples). They're no fun.

    (1) http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/about.php
    (2) http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/6/5/739123/-Denial-Movements-101:introduction-to-argumentoids
    (3) http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/7/29/758787/-Denial-Movements-102:-crazy-on-purpose

    ReplyDelete
  24. Thanks Snout - I'm going to read the other ones now. I appreciated when Hoofnagle et Hoofnagle said that denialists will often compare themselves to Galileo. That's what Clarkie always does! Except his blatherings are also incoherent rants (like Bill).

    ReplyDelete
  25. I didn't want to derail the comments on any newer posts but I really wanted to share this, and it at least fits with the context of this update.

    Yesterday, a host on 2UE (a metropolitan right-wing talk radio station based in Sydney) conducted an interview with one of the most prominent members of the anti-vaccine movement in Australia. Well, interview may not be quite the right word. I normally don't listen to Australian talk radio since their political coverage is hilariously right-wing, but this article is absolute gold. It's refreshing to hear the objective truth from the media, especially such a major and influential outlet as 2UE.

    ReplyDelete
  26. SETH K. WANTS TO BUY AFRICA A COCKTAIL!
    Seth says that he donates all the money from his book sales to get all the dirt poor HIV positive Aficans aboard the AZT pain-train? Well, I highly doubt that even at a measley forty cents per. day that your book sales total in full would even be enough to kill one HIV positive pygmy "if they could actually even find one HIV positive pygmy,that is" doc.
    Instead, why don't you just donate all the money that you make off all your pharma and biotech Co. stocks "insider trading" to that most honorable cause of yours instead Seth? You would be dropping them like flies over there "even at low dose" if chose to go that route! Boy Howdy!!
    Ponder that one for a spell!!!

    ReplyDelete