Inquiry launched over AIDS contrarian's teaching
Academic freedom should not be misused to spread theories that opponents say lack scientific evidence.
Zoë Corbyn Nature News 19 March 2012
The University of Florence has launched an inquiry into the teaching activities of an academic who assisted on a course that denies the causal link between HIV and AIDS, and supervised students with dissertations on the same topic.
The Italian university's internal 'special commission' will examine the "teaching behaviour and responsibility" of molecular biologist Marco Ruggiero, a university spokesman told Nature.
The move follows a letter to the institution's rector, Alberto Tesi, by an Italian campaign group called the HIV Forum, which represents people infected with HIV and others concerned about the disease. It calls on him to disassociate the university from the "science and activities" of Ruggiero, who, the group says, is "internationally known" for denying the widely accepted link between HIV and AIDS, and promotes a potential cure for HIV involving an enriched probiotic yoghurt for which there is no proven evidence.
Tesi replied on 29 February to announce the special commission. This "will examine whether professor Ruggiero's conduct complies with the institutional guidelines on teaching contents and adherence to the objectives of the official curriculum of biological sciences", says university spokesman Duccio Di Bari, who adds that any misconduct would be dealt with internally. The commission comprises Elisabetta Cerbai, the university's vice-chancellor for research; Paola Bruni, the dean of the School of Science; Sergio Romagnani, an emeritus professor and expert in immunology; and Massimo Benedetti, who is responsible for university legal affairs. They will hold hearings behind closed doors.
Death denial
The investigation is the latest twist in the fallout from a paper published in December in the Italian Journal of Anatomy and Embryology (IJAE) by researchers including Peter Duesberg, an academic at the University of California, Berkeley, well know for denying the link between HIV and AIDS. The paper, which challenges estimates of HIV-AIDS death tolls in South Africa, has received heavy criticism from scientists, who have questioned how it could have passed peer review, and has led two members of the IJAE editorial board to resign in protest (see 'Paper denying HIV-AIDS link sparks resignation). That Ruggiero was one of the paper's nine co-authors prompted the HIV Forum to write to the rector.
The forum cites two student dissertations mentored or co-mentored by Ruggiero that argue against the consensus that HIV causes AIDS. “Most available evidence does not support a causative role for HIV in AIDS,” they both conclude.
The HIV Forum also refers to a short elective course, consisting of two half days, which Nature understands ran twice in the 2010/11 academic year, and which Ruggiero collaborated on, entitled: ‘The revolution of immunotherapy: prospects for the treatment of cancer and AIDS’. According to the description, the course teaches “the role of HIV in the pathogenesis of AIDS; association but not causation”.
“What devastating effects can such false teaching have on future physicians and their patients?,” asks the HIV Forum, stressing that although academic freedom is fundamental in teaching and research, it should not be misused to spread theories that they say are "lacking any scientific evidence”.
“We hope the Commission will be scientifically rigorous and we hope that it will state that the best way to protect academic freedom is to teach according to the worldwide recognized scientific method,” says a forum spokesperson.
Parallel lines
Ruggiero, whose supporters have also written to the rector, says he has always operated with scientific integrity and is confident he will be able to give any explanations that the committee asks for. He draws parallels with an inquiry the University of California held two years ago into the conduct of Duesberg, which resulted in no charges.
“Florence is famous for having been the city of Galileo Galilei, the worldwide recognized symbol of the predominance of scientific freedom over dogmas. I am convinced that freedom of teaching and research is a stronghold of our university system,” he says. He adds that the student dissertations and the course were approved by the university.
The commission was welcomed by Fabio Marra, a professor of medicine at the university, who says the institution must shed “full light on the events”.
“I believe that every researcher has the right to submit his or her work through peer-reviewed journals, no matter how little credibility that data may have,” Marra says. “What is not acceptable is that personal theories, that are not supported by the weight of evidence, are taught to students that do not yet have the skills to form an independent opinion and to discriminate what they are being taught from what the bulk of the literature has shown.”
The special commission is due to report by 15 April.
Nature doi:10.1038/nature.2012.10250
Has Ruggiero actually sold his yogurt yet? Seems like its been a year since he claimed to invent it and promised the recipe.
ReplyDeleteI start work practicing medicine in LA next month. I hope to stop in and see Clarkie and his gang. If anyone on this blog lives near California, let me know. Perhaps we can form a pro-Science group to neutralize Clarkie. I plan to stop at Berkeley on the way... possibly present Duesberg with the award he truly deserves.
ReplyDeleteHow come a hand full of absolutelly mistaken people, who are not good even to produce a peer reviewed paper, when most of my colleges produce peer reviewed pepers week in and week out and are not more intelligent than my barber, make so many wise people who are so sure that they are completelly right feel so threaten as to call for repressive measures to be apppied to thos few totally mistaken fools?
DeleteI hope this inquiry will have some real consequences against Mr. Marco. Either way, the denialists will just claim they are being targeted and persecuted. At least this inquiry was generated with cause, unlike the bullshit harassment the denialists perform when attacking Seth, Moore, Gallo etc as paid by the pharmaceutical companies when they are not. OR when targeting employers of those they disagree with. Just a few months ago someone listed Seth's co-workers and phone numbers and claimed to be mounting an attack. I wonder, did anything come of that, Seth? I doubt it. Seth's employer and co-workers know the quality of Seth's work and the craziness of the denialists.
ReplyDeleteCelia Farber is reporting at Truth Barrier that Ruggiero has filed a lawsuit against the anonymous people who started this inquiry. If it was filed by anonymous people from a proxy server, that is pretty childish and stupid. This kind of hidden agenda is wrong, in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I do find some humor in the fact that the ReThinking AIDS facebook group are suggesting a letter writing campaign in support of Ruggiero. I wonder if it will fizzle out like their other "strongly worded letter" against Brian Deer!
Sounds like the Ruggiero case is one for the prestigious "Office of Medical and Scientific Justice" and its esteemed leader (and only worker) Clarkie Baker!
ReplyDeleteHe is already commenting on the article's website.
Also, does the yougurt have fruit on the bottom or is it pre-mixed? I like pre-mixed yogurt better.
I am not a scientist, but I have to agree with Marra that we shouldn't be so stingy as to object to Duesberg's paper getting published. If he gets into peer review only in the obscure journals and the only experts who cite him are those wishing to criticize his work, the system has worked. :)
ReplyDelete"I hope this inquiry will have some real consequences against Mr. Marco. Either way, the denialists will just claim they are being targeted and persecuted."
ReplyDeleteThis and the fact that the complaint was lodged by an anonymous bunch is exactly what fuels denialism and keeps people flocking to them. This childish "SHUT HIM THE HELL UP" approach to "denialism" needs to stop. They tried it against Duesberg and it failed and it will probably fail this time around. This whole thing is a serious waste of time again.
And this man is instructing and supervising students who are working on their dissertations? You have got to be kidding me. I have seen some fairly dishonest bits of research come out of academia (mostly contained to the social sciences) but this type of behavior is an outrage.
ReplyDeleteAcademic dishonesty is typically grounds for expulsion for undergrads and grad students at most universities. For professors, it warrants immediate action by the department chair up to and and including removal of tenure and termination.
This is not flawed methodology, this is willful distortion that brings discredit to anyone who practices due diligence in their research.
The University needs to take action on this to set an example that this type of behavior will not be tolerated. Hopefully this will dissuade other flakes with the intellect of a turnip from using their positions within academia to promote pseudoscience.
Nancy Banks from Rethinking Aids will be speaking the aptly named Conspiracy Con, where AIDS denial will take its rightful place alongside serious discussions of Illuminati, Alien Abductions, Holocaust Denial, and how the Moon is going to kill us all.
ReplyDeleteThe moon is slowly but inexorably drifting away from its orbit around the earth. Eventually a tipping point will be reached and all life on this planet will wither away and will we become the next Mars. But don't worry, we'll all be loooong dead by then.
DeleteActually, the life on Earth will be destroyed by the dying sun, before tidal drag does us in. But as you say, that is billions of years in the future and probably irrelevant.
Deletethat is also so but actually it will be destroyed by some d***h**d in a basement/bunker.
DeleteNancy Banks, or Dr. Bigot Banks, as she prefers to be called, is perfect for Conspiracy Con. In the intro to her book, she claims HIV/AIDS is a conspiracy of ALL doctors, scientists, nurses, and medical persons in the entire world and has been going on for, as she puts it, the past 50 if not the past 100 years! Seriously, the woman is a nut.
ReplyDeleteShe also claims in the same book that gay men used Bactrim as a prophylactic before going out at night so they would not get STDs. Not only is that ignorant and bigoted, it is also wrong. Bactrim has never been used as a prophylactic NOR as a treatment for STDs. Being a doctor, she should know that!
Elizabeth Ely, Farber and Baker all claim that because she is black, she can not be a bigot. That too is stupid. How many examples of minorities hating other minorities can you think of? Just because you are a member of a minority it does not mean you are absolved of bigoted thoughts and behaviors!
My favorite "theory" along those lines was that the early 1980s AIDS cases among gay men were caused by misuse of the drug sirolimus, supposedly to prevent and treat chlamydia infections.
DeleteThis is the text of one of Marco Ruggiero's lecture slides from his course "The Chemical Bases of AIDS" that he delivered the University of Florence:
"there was most probably synergy between poppers and something else possibly rapamycin, aka sirolimus (because it was initially used in the treatment and prophylaxis of CHLAMYDIA) as it would certainly fit the timeframe. Since its immunosuppressive effects (and the full data sheet USED to read like a shopping list for AIDS but has strangely and recently been rewritten) became known (hence the name and indication change) it was no longer used as a “general” antibiotic."
Sirolimus was never used in humans as an antibiotic - let alone for chlamydia. It was not even FDA approved until 1999, and even then it has only been used as a transplant anti-rejection drug or in cardiac stents. Its use in humans before the late 90s was nonexistent, and since then has been highly restricted.
Popping sirolimus before going out on a night on the town? Apart from anything else, a month's supply of sirolimus for a kidney transplant patient costs about $3000, compared to a few cents for a doxycycline tablet (doxycycline was the usual treatment for non-gonococcal urethritis in the 1980s).
It's fascinating reading the denialists' ridiculous fantasies about what gay men were supposed to be getting up to in the 1980s. But it's pretty scary that such fantasies are passed off as fact in what is supposed to be a respectable university.
That is very interesting about Sirolimus. Can anyone corroborate this info? It's pretty amazing that both Ruggiero and Banks are reporting wrong information regarding STD drugs that are not used as they have claimed.
ReplyDeleteIt's slide 35 from the fourth lecture in the series. Ruggiero has removed the links to his lecture slides from his website, but it's still on the University of Florence's server:
Deletewww.unifi.it/clsbio/upload/sub/Four%20Chemical%20AIDS.pdf
Ruggiero copy-pasted the text for this slide from a comment by "Cathy" on Henry Bauer's website:
http://hivskeptic.wordpress.com/2010/01/13/elsevier-publishes-another-hiv-denialist-article/#comment-5173
It's amazing how much of the crap from Henry and his loony internet followers has found its way into the University of Florence's biological sciences curriculum. And then copy-pasted into student dissertations that were apparently marked very highly and then recycled back on to the web as cutting edge academic work.
Perhaps the university's commission will investigate how this happened.
Enquiring minds would like to know.
It's not amazing at all.
DeleteBut yes, a simple literature search for "rapamycin chylamidia" shows there are almost no papers on the combination, and those that are, are in the realm of basic research. There is nothing on its prophylactic use outside of Ruggiero/Banks.
The only ones I found were in reference to Chlamydia pneumonia NOT Chlamydia trachomatis, which is the causative agent of STD infection. Just because they are the same genus does not make them the same organism. SO, it does seem that both Ruggiero and Bigot Banks are giving out false information. Which means, if they are wrong on something so basic as treatment of STDs, they might be wrong on their outlandish conspiracy theories and HIV Science...but their lemming followers will never question their allegiance. It is not allowed in cults like AIDS Denial.
ReplyDeleteDid anyone read Jonathan Barnett's "Open Letter to Nora" in support of Ruggiero? First of all, Barnett is much like Farber; too emotional and not intellectual. Barnett's response is very, very angry. He takes the fact that someone else has a different opinion than him to heart!
ReplyDeleteHe also tries to pin the impetus for the letter to the University of Florenze on Snout for some reason. Snout, can you address that?
The letter was widely discussed at ReThinking AIDS Facebook. They claim to support the sentiment, but most take umbrage with the fact that Barnett admits he is HIV+ and has AIDS. They attack him for being "in the AIDS Zone" (is that a 90's song by Vanessa Williams?) and berate Barnett for admitting that HIV exists and that ARVs actually work!
Of course Barnett still holds that ARVs, while increasing CD4 and decreasing Viral Load and improving health, will only do so for a short time. Barnett goes on to claim that his health is so poor that he is about to start ARVs again, but says that a myriad of other unproven woo is why he has been able to stay off ARVs since 2003. He gives a laundry list of mojo he has used over those years that have kept him off of ARVs, but if you know Barnett's story, you know that since 2003 he has been on disability, too sick to work, and, in fact, so sick he sleeps 18 hours a day and has no energy for the simplest tasks.
Barnett's list of mojo and woo includes Chinese Herbs, acupuncture, low dose naltexone, glutathione precursors, UV blood radiation, and, my favorite, IV Vitamin C. Barnett's letter does not supply one single link to proof that any of these things work. Why? Because most have been studied and SHOWN NOT TO WORK, even though Barnett lies in his letter and claims they have not been studied! They have been.
Even Barnett's own lengthy blog posts about IV Vitamin C shows it did not work for him. In fact, the IV Vitamin C did give short bursts of energy, followed by hours of sleep. Also, when Barnett compounded the Vitamin C himself, he admits to violent shakes for hours, hypothermia, and muscles so sore for days following that he could barely get out of bed! And yet he did that again two more times with the same adverse events.
Now he is desperately wanting Ruggieros GcMAF which Ruggiero admits will cost over $3500 for 6 months! Why do these denialists cling so tenaciously so unproven woo when ARVs have given life back to those with AIDS? They claim it is the toxicities, but that is just overblown, emotional bullshit. When will they look at the facts intellectually?
Off topic, but I'm really enjoying Celia Farber displaying her grasp of current events at her new and improved Truth Barrier blog.
ReplyDeleteShe's very excited about discovering via a Secret Wikileaks Cable that President Obama lifted the discriminatory visa restrictions on HIV positive visitors to the US... err... over two years ago, after extensive and very public lobbying for this by activists over many years.
"If this is such old news", says rocket scientist David Rasnick, "how come no media covered it, and how come neither you nor I heard it before, and we watch AIDS news very carefully."
Celia (and perhaps Rasnick) must have been holed up in her Love Box at the time to have missed it. It was extensively covered by just about every major media outlet at the time. See, for example, the BBC, CNN, the Guardian, the New York Times, the Washington Post, etc.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8438865.stm
http://articles.cnn.com/2010-01-04/travel/us.hiv.visa_1_hiv-positive-hiv-infection-hiv-travel-and-immigration?_s=PM:TRAVEL
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/05/hiv-visa-america-paul-thorn
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/30/obama-lifts-ban-on-visitors-with-hiv/#
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2009/10/30/obama_to_announce_end_to_hiv_t.html
@ WAT:
DeleteWell, you obviously are jealous because she now has a weekly internet radio show @ the Progressive Radio Network.com called 'Radio Free Science' ( personally, I think it should have been called 'Science Free Radio') Fridays 3pm US Eastern Time. It will be archived and is also available on itunes: this way fans won't miss a single episode! Lucky them!
I am not making this up.
Sceptic D
Hey, let's not be too hard on Celia and Dave. It is not easy to know what is going on in the world when you have your head up your ass.
DeleteThis is indeed old news. But did Wikileaks really publish a document that is freely available online and has been for two and a half years. See here:
Deletehttp://travel.state.gov/visa/laws/telegrams/telegrams_4631.html
http://www.nafsa.org/resourcelibrary/default.aspx?id=20265
Appparently, it did.
http://www.cablegatesearch.net/cable.php?id=09STATE128614&q=hiv
So the big question is why did Wikileaks want to make a public document look secret?
Maybe she can drum up some support in her fake Internet radio show and get another $25 in donations.
ReplyDeleteSeth- I think accurately they actually have their heads up each others' asses.
The petition at Change.org in favor of Ruggiero has a whopping 66 signatures in 4 days! PATHETIC!
ReplyDeleteThis is just one more clarification that the AIDS Deniers cannot gather the troops and circle the wagon for any reason! Perhaps that is why they are really so outraged. They are pissed that the Italians at HIVForum who wrote the original letter against Ruggiero are better organized and efficient. When you have truth on your side, justice is much easier to accomplish.
Wht happened to all the vocal supporters on the Facebook page? They don't like actually committing to stuff?
DeletePoor Jonathan Barnett. You really have to feel sorry for him. He is so angry and vengeful. No wonder he is such a physically ill person who only has the energy to write vehement, fact free rants and then go back to sleep for 18 hours.
ReplyDeleteHis "Open Letter to 'Nora'" was hilarious partly because "Nora" is really "Dora"! Now Barnett has written a new post at his RIF site in which he calls this person both Nora and Dora interchangeably. I'm not sure if he realizes his mistake. Probably not. He is too busy spewing vile and righteous indignation and blaming everything on Snout. You gotta check it out. Even when he tries to present his evidence against Snout, all he does is prove just how his anger clouds his ability to see the error and lies of said evidence. If it were not so sad and pathetic, it would be funny. OK, I'll admit it; it is pretty damn funny!
Barnett also tries to slam Snout's site, Reckless Endangerment, by claiming the Alexa ranking shows how few readers Snout has. Of course Barnett neglects to say that Snout went about 8 months without writing a new post and now only posts every other month or so, if that. That is why readers don't go to the site everyday.
Compare that with Barnett's site. Barney actively and aggressively tries to get readers and adds new content much more frequently and his Alexa Ranking is still much, much lower than Seth's blog! Yep, this very blog you are reading now is the most popular of all the denialist and orthodox sites combined!!
Oh, and Clark Baker's OMSJ Alexa Ranking is about 21 million...just barely above Snout's, and Baker posts new content almost every day and is also active and aggressive about trying for new readers!
Sad. Very sad.
So Dora thanked Snout for making her laugh? And then her post disappeared in a forum cleanup?
DeleteThat's it? That is the evidence that Snout is the shadowy puppet master behind the effort to take down Ruggiero? I've heard more convincing evidence that Prince Charles is a reptilian cannibal.
Does anyone know about this "Justice for Jacqueline" by Nicole Zwiren? They are asking for $2,000 donations so that Clark Baker can investigate it. They have garnered only $400 so far. I wonder why he won't do it pro bono.
ReplyDeleteI couldn't help myself...wrote a reply to Barnett's "Open Letter to Nora"!
ReplyDeleteThey actually want to "pay" Clarkie? Sad- they might as well flush that money down the toilet.
ReplyDelete@Truthy:
ReplyDeleteI don't think you meant Clark taking the case "pro bono". I think you meant, "pro bozo."
Curses notElon! You have foiled my plot to become the half-blood Prince, to enslave and then eat all England!
ReplyDeleteSnout is he-who-must-not be named. Clark Baker does not believe in me, since he does not believe in evolution. Thank God no one has raised $2000 to investigate me, otherwise Clark would discover that evolution is alive and well!
Today, all England! Tomorrow, the entire non Reptilian world! Even pro Bozo cannot stop me!
Seth, I owe you an apology. I doubted your link on the side about Christine Maggiore. [I wasn't able to access the article.] I never really believed that anyone could think Law & Order would kill someone. But I saw it with my own eyes on Facebook. She watched Law & Order. Some time later, she developed a strange rash. Then, sixty days later, she died of pneumonia. Clearly the Law & Order.
ReplyDeleteHas anyone noticed that the "members" of ReThinking AIDS facebook page have been increasing quite a bit lately, but there are no new people posting comments. Sounds fishy to me.
ReplyDeleteOur good friend Noreen Martin has re-surfaced. ORAC has a great post about her recent shenanigans. Mostly on cancer quackery, but with a nice bit of AIDS Denial thrown in.
ReplyDeletehttp://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/03/opposing_views_cancer_quackery_versushiv.php
Someone in the comment section linked to a recent Phoenixrising comment by Noreen in which he actually extols the virtues of some ARVs and even states that she is currently on Atripla (3 deadly ARVs in one) and has had NO side effects. I guess the AIDS Deniers will not be thrilled with that since ARVs are so toxic just looking at them will terminate your mitochondrial DNA or whatever they say.
Also, Atripla contains Sustiva so I guess Clark Baker will say that Martin is addicted to Sustiva and that's why she is claiming Atripla has NO side effects!
I do not take any HAART, although, I was in the CDC's worse classification of AIDS. I found that steroids work just fine for chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia and are safer.
DeleteYeah- Clark Baker is such an amazing expert on pharmacology- his opinion is so credible!
ReplyDeleteIt seems that Jonathan Barnett is very upset again, this time with David Crowe and all of ReThinking AIDS. Crowe sent out a letter in support of Ruggiero in which Crowe admitted CD4 counts and viral load are important and real indicators of health just as we "orthodox" claim. Barnett is also upset by the use of Crowe's term of those "affected" with HIV/AIDS. It seems there are none of these "affecteds" on the Board of Directors and Barnett resents Crowe using the term.
ReplyDeleteTo me, this is just further proof that denialists will say and do anything to further their agenda, and it's all based on who their audience is. For this letter to be considered seriously by the University, Crowe knew he had to tone down his crazy ass rhetoric. It's called being a hypocrite. It's nice Barnett at least acknowledges this fact. Hopefully Jonathan will distance himself further from the denialists and take ARVs like Noreen Martin and get his health back.
Gary Null is back in force at RA Facebook page. Odd that people would accuse me of all people of taking tainted money, and then let this charlatan openly advertise his snake oil.
ReplyDeleteThe same snake oil that almost killed Gary Null himself, I might add.
@notElon:
ReplyDeleteHypocrisy isn't "odd" in the topsy-turvy world of the AIDS Denialist fools - it is the norm! What else would you expect from a bunch of silly turds like Clarkie and Celia!
In fact, this article could be retitled "Rugierro is destined for a Clark Baker/Celia Farber Career!"
Friends,
ReplyDeleteI'm now practicing in California- living the dream.
Anyone want to join me on a field trip to Berkeley? I have something special to give our favorite absent minded professor... a reward he richly deserves.
Then on to Los Angeles- more special gifts for Clarkie the Keystone Kop and his sidekick Gil!
Someone calling himself "AndyScottofthefamilyLindsay" has published Baker's Fee Schedule at RA facebook. They are accusing Baker of "fleecing" people and questioning OMSJ "charity" status! ha! It seems Baker is not completely loved. Check it out:
ReplyDeleteAndy Scottofthefamily Lindsay
All cheques are payable to OMSJ,inc.
CONSULTING FEE SCHEDULE Professional discount is provided for trial testimony/per case basis INVESTIGATOR: Initial Consultation – no charge Review of reports, evidence, statements, witness statements, case file, and report preparation: $250.00/hour Deposition testimony: $250/hour (two hour minimum) Trial testimony: $250/hr (two hour minimum) $1000.00 for a ...half day or $2,000.00 for a full day Travel expenses: Paid in advance. Travel time: $100/hr $500.00/day MEDICAL or Initial Consultation – no charge SCIENTIFIC EXPERT: Review of medical or scientific records and materials, witness statements, microscopic glass slides, and report preparation: $400.00/hour Deposition testimony: $800/hour (two-hour minimum) Trial testimony: $800/hr (two hour minimum) $3200.00 for a half day or $6400.00 for a full day Travel expenses: Paid in advance. Travel time: $400.00/hr $1600/day RETAINER: Retainer due with signed agreement: $5,000.00 or other amount (determined by Investigator/Expert) is due in advance with signed retainer agreement prior to initiating work on any consulting case. All checks are payable to OMSJ, Inc., (charity)
Looks like he is taking it all back. Now he adores Clark Baker again.
DeleteHilarious! Even amongst Club Douche - Baker has proved too much of a pathetic loser!
ReplyDeleteI am glad they are catching on to his ruse though. I doubt Clarkie has made much money at all of this stupid scheme - he is still living off his 80 something year-old wife.
Truthy, you don't know who Andy Lindsay is? He didn't yet threaten to cut out your kidneys and eat them? Such a charming guy.
ReplyDeleteNo i didnt , and i didnt threaten to cut yours out either notElonbutnotthatclevereither. Show me were i hinted at that and ill show you a liar deuchbag. And certainly not in the way BSE on the bogus Diamanda Gallas site with all you other charming people "threatened" to feed Celia Farber to the crocodiles after dropping her out a Cesna and have me ran over by a combine harvester . Anyway , HIV , the deadliest thing on the planet , which there are 4000 "synthetic" copies of , can be stopped in its tracks by getting it again thus building super antibodies hahaha . WQhat a bunch of crazies you and your ilk are, psychopaths the lot of you.
DeleteActually, you did threaten to kill me. Several times in fact.It's in print on this very blog.
DeleteHere's an example.
"Ive lived in places that have padded rooms to prevent those that are in them from smashing down the walls to get to people like you. Thats a fact by the way , ive seen them gouge the eyes out of people like you , Snout, Kralc, and Bovine Spongey Face . They think its normal and that bullies deserve this. Me , i think its just a fraction of the suffering others had to put up with at the hands of people in AIDS Inc. Maybe ill put them in touch with you all some day , theyd be glad to meet your aquaintance."
As for Diamanda Gallas, I have no idea what you are talking about. I generally don't.
Man o' Man, that group at RA facebook provide a wealth of entertainment. Now Gio Azule is laying out a new conspiracy theory all based on a new vintage store opening in Amsterdam. This store has raised lots of money for AIDS. But because it is in Amsterdam where marijuana is legal, some how this Gio Azule is claiming some crazy conspiracy theory about HIV testing and Drug Testing. It's so stupid, I'm not even sure how he made all these crazy ass assumptions. He is saying that HIV testing and drug testing involve the same proteins and that drugs are tested via ELISA:
ReplyDeleteGio Azule: "still nobody has been able to show us the proteins for drug screening vs. the proteins for 'hiv' screening - its top secret information - and thats how a conspiracy begins - and nobody ever gets to know whether or not its true"
First of all, drug tests involve the detection of the chemical metabolites of the drug. Also, the ELISA is not a commonly used methodology for drug detection. But even if it were, the story Gio linked was about a vintage retail store with profits going for AIDS research etc, not whatever crazy conspiracy theory he was trying to weave.
Also, it's fun to note that Cal Crilly is back and is as ridiculous as ever. If I remember correctly, JTD at D4D used to call him Cal Crilly Silly Willy because his science posts were as stupid and unrealistic as Clark Bakers!! Thank God for RA facebook!
Someone should pull Crilly to the side and whisper in his ear that there are two p24s and they have nothing in common but mass.
DeleteAlso that animal cells don't have cell walls.
DeleteThe Facebook page now has a link praising Rupert "Telepathy Crystal" Sheldrake. One of the comments complains that he is ostracized just like Duesberg. No kidding. They both went off the deep end 25 years ago. Though I doubt that Sheldrake was ever on it.
DeleteAlso, someone is mocking their helpful chemist friend for saying that fluoridation of drinking water is not a scourge against humanity. Ha! What do chemists know about chemicals. We must guard our Purity of Essence and our Natural Bodily... Fluids. Huzzah!
Question:
ReplyDeleteDoes Clarkie Baker do anything on his crap website other than cut and paste other people's articles?
Yes , he exposes the HIV scam which you lot peddle.
Delete'Qui se ressemble, s'assemble' ( Birds of a feather...)
ReplyDeleteLuc Montagnier will present at the Autism One Quack-fest in May, near Chicago.
Sceptic D
Wow! The denialists have done it again!
ReplyDeleteClarkie exposes a new conspiracy- bigger than AIDS! The Star Wars Death Star was AN INSIDE JOB! MADE UP BY THE LAMESTREAM MEDIA AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT! This colossal cover up has all the makings of criminal enterprise. Only a beat cop who studied humanity on the streets of Rio could figure this out!
Darth Vader blew up his own death star to take over the galaxy for himself- Luke was just a harmless passenger virus that had nothing to do with anything!
Here is Clarkie's newest website: http://www.websurdity.com/2007/02/28/uncomfortable-questions-was-the-death-star-attack-an-inside-job/
We’ve all heard the “official conspiracy theory” of the Death Star attack. We all know about Luke Skywalker and his ragtag bunch of rebels, . ..but while in Rio, I began to realize that all was not as it seemed. And the more I questioned the official story, the deeper into the rabbit hole I went.
OH! I can't wait...Liam Scheff has a book coming out!! I have been looking for a good comedy to read. I'll have to put on a pair of Depends and sit back and get ready to piss myself silly!! Dear God, thank you!!
ReplyDeleteI'm sure Scheff's "book" will be published by none other than the prestigious "TruthBarrier Press".
ReplyDeleteHas anyone read Jonathan Barnett's latest post at RIF? He details all his ailments and it is not pretty. He has been very, very sick. He had MRSA all over his body so bad they are now scars. He had several Herpes outbreaks all over his face. The one picture he has of it is terrible and he says that is one of the milder outbreaks. He claims he has been sick all of his life. No wonder he has such a twisted view of disease, treatments and doctors.
ReplyDeleteWhat everyone needs to remember though is that his level of sickness is far from normal or typical. Even for someone who is prone to being sick, MRSA all over a person's body and many severe Herpes outbreaks are not normal. His immune system is fucked and he has suffered immensely. That is why we need to realize that his extreme level of suffering is why his views and opinions are so extreme and twisted that his opinions should be considered within this context.
It is surprising, however, that he actually comes across as the most normal, logical and well thought of all the dissidents.
I think, sadly, that Jonathan Barnett is about to become the next Karri Stokley. When he dies (I estimate on the order of months) there will, as usual, be silence on the side of the Denialist turds. If anything, they may comment that it was "stress" that killed him or some bullshit like that. Celia might say that the "lovebox" could have cured him.
ReplyDelete@Truthy:
ReplyDeleteI just read Barnett's piece. The sordid succession of opportunistic infections actually demonstrates that his "resistance" is not "fruitful" but actually "stupid."
Also, in Barnett's history, he acknowledges that he was diagnosed with brain atrophy and AIDS dementia. That may explain some, not all of his psychiatric symptoms and craziness. But turds like Farber and Clarkie have no clarified organic disease other than pure unbridled stupidity to cause their narcissistic stupidity. (Well, Clarkie does try exploit his fake scamming "organization" to make a buck - that is some motivator for him). Farber is just a histrionic sad case of loserdom sprinkled with a flavor of attention-whore and garnished with a side of bitch.
Kralc Rekab-"narcissistic stupidity"
DeleteThat desribes you and rest of your crew here perfectly. You actually believe that the only thing anyone ever has to do is just take the drugs!
No worries, if they would just take the drugs!
Nobody ever died on the drugs? As if!
Money? Who's making the money in all this? Clark Baker?
You are nothing but a complete troglodyte.
Um. But that is because it is true. The drugs work. Spend money on them. Herbs and yogurt don't work. So save your money.
DeleteBarnett spent thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, on all sorts of "experimental" treatments, which insurance didn't cover, and which almost killed him.
He now admits that he will have to go back to the drugs if he wants to stay alive. But at the same time, he wants to buy yogurt from a guy who doesn't think Barnett's disease actually exists in the hope it will cure him. What is the logic in that?
The drugs aren't perfect, but they work. Even denialists admit that. And the denialist treatments can't work, because how can you cure what you believe isn't real? So yeah, of course our advice is to take the drugs. There is nothing else I can tell you.
Maria Papagiannidou,the greek denialist who also wrote a book about her denialism,passed away now.
ReplyDeleteOf course, let the grave dancing begin... When will you guys finally understand and admit, that people die, regardless of the side they are in and regardless of the approach they choose to take? When are you going to finally have some tact and empathie towards those who stay behind? When will you all be willing to put your differences aside and come together to find a decent solution?
DeleteThe above comment is despicable.
Its 'despicable'? Its a fact. And it was relayed without any emotion or gloating. Why is it despicable to mention a fact? Because its uncomfortable to you?
DeleteMaggiore, Maggiore's kid, Stokely, Bannon, Emery, Papagiannidou... Thats 6 people in a relatively short amount of time... The 'everyone dies' retort is pretty lame at this point in the game. You are really stretching common sense.
How can you ask the dogma side to come together for a solution. They HAVE a workable solution. Take anti-retrovirals. If you refuse to do it, then the consequenes are all on you.
Maybe because Maria used the fact she was alive to leverage her case that HIV doesn't exist. Thus, noting her death is important.
DeleteNow if Anonymous had written, "Bring out the cold ones! Another one bites the dust," your comment might make sense. But no one wrote that.
Mary openly admitted on the internet that she was deathly ill several times and that only protease inhibitors seemed to help. Regrettably, this was not enough to make her question her views, and she did not remain on them. http://www.hivwave.gr/pages/en/
Here is an article about her.
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thebest.gr%2Fnews%2Findex%2FviewStory%2F122126&act=url
Where is the grave dancing? The comment just informed us that the greek lady,who was a denialist,just passed away?
DeleteNo, the comment stating Maria P died is not "despicable" nor is it "grave dancing". It was simply stated as a fact. It is you who is starting to make this incendiary and salacious with your lying accusations. State facts or shut up. No one here is happy when anyone dies. But that has not stopped those at RA facebook page from stating such lies. Gos Blank, (who is probably the brave "anonymous" hurling the lie here) has said that we "orthodox" are happy when a denialist dies. That is complete rubbish. Of course they can not provide even one sentence where an "orthodox" person has shown glee over the death of Taylor, Stokely or even Maggiore. But of course the fact that they cannot provide proof has never stopped the denialists from lies and slander.
ReplyDeleteHow about the truth that they had all taken AZT , with the exception of Christine and her daughter who were hounded to death.
ReplyDeleteFuck the lot of you , insensitive irresponsible bastards the lot of you. Your lucky you lot got this far on this whole fucking scam. Theres not an ounce of humanity amongst you.
Andy Lindsay.
Emery Taylor never took AZT. You lot claim he did because he died, just like people claim Magic Johnson didn't because he's alive.
DeleteAccording to the Rethinking AIDS facebook group, Emery Taylor died from using poppers:
DeleteYvonne Bender It seems Emery failed to stop popper use in time.
Gos Blank Yvonne, to the best of my knowledge, Emery Taylor did not use poppers.
Now, when I say, "to the best of my knowledge", I mean exactly that. It's always possible that he was secretly using and that I don't know about it. I cannot claim absolute knowledge. But the best information I can come up with indicates that he wasn't using.
Celia Ingrid Farber Categorical fact, but how many are aware that: A) Michael Callen was a massive, massive poppers abuser. He told me EVERYTHING. Except that. Richard Berkowitz told me.
B) Huw Christie was a massive, massive poppers user. I can't reveal my source on this one but I swear it is a very well connected source.
God I am so sick of lies and false quagmire. There is nothing new under the sun, Horatio.
Yvonne Bender He did not stop poppers IN TIME to save his own life.
Ted Stearn Fpr the longest time I was perplexed by Emery's death. A young person just does not die from KS. There MUST have been a specific factor involved. I'll never know, but, if I had to, I would have to wager there was a use of poppers. I can't come to any other conclusion.
Kai Max Cross From what I know, Ted, you're probably right. Poor guy!
http://www.facebook.com/groups/RethinkingAIDS/10150739562318187/
Denialism in action.
"There is no MAGIC in AZT, and there is NO AZT in Magic!" Never heard that one?
DeleteMagic took that crap for about a week on the orders of Fauci and Ho, and it made him sicker than shit. That was end of the AZT for him. You idiots have not a clue what that guys doing, or not doing.
Um no. Magic knows AIDS is real, and that medicine works.
DeleteI live in LA. He has billboards up everywhere advertising HIV medication. He talks about AIDS all the time. He has a foundation that pays for testing and support for HIV infection. Now I could assume that Magic secretly doesn't take AZT, doesn't believe in HIV, and set up a foundation to murder innocent people for inscrutable purposes and that's why Magics's alive, and I could assume that Emory Taylor secretly took AZT, even though he believed it would kill him, and that's why Emory's dead. But there is no evidence for this ridiculous conspiracy theory, other than the fact that you want it to be that way.
Um...you think you everything, and you obviously don't.
DeleteI bet you also know of many other fat people continuously being fed chemo for as long as Magic? Magic is fat!
Magic sure does know that the AIDS virus exists, he also knows that plenty of people are infected with it, especially in the black community. Thats why he formed that foundation. Magic is also a business man that backs vitamins as well.
The black community couldn't ask for a better poster-boy, because thats mainly where you can find the virus these days! Look into it.
You're a hateful bigot. I honestly cannot believe you just wrote those words. Yes obviously, we al want the black community to die, and we are secretly giving Magic money to cause that. Because that's all those people like Magic care about: Money.
DeleteGreat rejoinder. Magic is fat. Ergo he doesn't take HAART. SO convincing.
You disgust me.
notElon-You should be as far from an "IDIOT" as I am from being a "bigot".
DeleteMagic doesn't hate the color green, and he certainly isn't allergic to dead presidents anymore than you are.
He didn't just purchase the L.A. Dodgers with "box tops",did he?
Why didn't Magic instead put the money for the purchase of Dodgers where his saintly mouth is, like for example- His very own AIDS foundation? He cares, just not that damn much! Thats why.
"Yes obviously, we al want the black community to die, and we are secretly giving Magic money to cause that."
Who are "WE" anyway? If "WE" is a reference to yourself along with the rest of like minded knuckle-heads on this train wreck, then "no", I don't. lol
You basically said we, being non-black people, are funneling money to Magic so he can trick other black people into buying medicine they don't need.
DeleteYes, I think that is a little bigoted and insane. Much more nasty and convoluted a theory than that Magic actually thinks AIDS exists and takes the medicine he says he does. But I wouldn't expect anything less of you.
notElon- Thats what you gathered from what i said? You were not even close! lol
DeleteThe re-roping of my words that you somehow managed pulling-off there just speaks volumes.
How ANY of you whiz-kids that post here regularly actually have the guts to call others ignorant and stupid regarding AIDS is quite beyond me.
There has been no grave dancing... I can show you the letters I wrote to Karri Stokely urging her to choose life. I told her to secretly take the medicines she needed to live, and that no one needed to know. I told her she could still bash anti-retrovirals and promote Duesberg... I wrote on 9-24-10:
ReplyDeleteDear Karri,
No one needs to die to make a point.
Your two children and the rest of your family needs you to be strong. You have labored so long against drug companies you may be tempted to make yourself a martyr. Please don't. There is a lot more you can do for this world by not being a martyr. No one needs to die to make a point.
There are too many movements with too many martyrs. Please, consider the best advice of the best doctor you can find, and take whatever means needed.
Many of us would have flown to Karri to help save her life... as a doctor, I'm sworn to save life, and would have flown to her to help save her life. I'm sorry that she did not take the help we offered.
I felt that Karri was a good person who was misled by Clark Baker. I'm sad that we could not find a way to help her.
James Murtagh
DeletePeople die just as pretty as you please on the drugs as well, many times very suddenly at that!
If Stokely would have died suddenly of a heart attack or organ failure after another year while still taking the drugs from day one, none of the bleeding hearts here would have even known who the hell she was,nor would they have even cared to. End of story.
Take the drugs and spin the wheel?
Nobody with cancer ever died from their chemo treatments either I suppose? The cancer got them all! Is that it ?
Kari died in pain from total immune collapse. She was sick for months, slowly getting worse. She didn't die of a sudden heart attack. She died of AIDS, or at the very least, she died while having AIDS. And AIDS is a disease that we have the proven ability to treat. If she started the drugs, would she have lived? Maybe, but there is no way to know. She was pretty ill.
DeleteYou're right. People on chemo still die from cancer. But people not on chemo will almost certainly die of cancer. And people with AIDS will almost certainly die from it. Certainly hiding your face in the sand, pretending you are perfectly fine, while your organs slowly fail, is madness.
So yes, take the drugs and spin the wheel. What other choice is there? They are proven to be the best option, and if you take them early enough while you still have health, your statistical lifespan is almost as long as if you never had HIV in the first place.
I also wrote letters to the leaders of the denialist movement. If only they had valued Karri's life, I am certain she could have been saved. I am sorry to say that David Crowe in particular showed callous disregard of Karri's life. Crowe was intent that Karri not get medical help, no matter what the consequences. I also pleaded with Celia Farber to put politics aside... saving Karri's life was much more important.
ReplyDeleteDate: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 09:34:48 -0700
To: David Crowe
From: Jim Murtagh
Subject: A serious letter of concern
Cc:
Bcc: David Rasnick , Peter Duesberg , Henry Bauer , "Gil Mileikowsky ,M.D." , Peter Duesberg , ClFarber@aol.com, editor@thetruthbarrier.com, celiafarber@aol.com, david.crowe@rethinkingaids.com, press@rethinkingaids.com, Elizabeth Ely , drasnick@mac.com, "Michael Geiger"
Mr. Crowe,
On a very serious note, I am very concerned for your colleague Ms. Stokely. I hope you and Ms. Farber will use your influence to help Ms. Stokely seek medical treatment. Many of us are very seriously worried for her, and would like to send a letter.
But, I mean this completely. If it would do any good, I'd be happy to talk to her and her family on the phone. This doesn't need to be about any dispute. This isn't about pharma or making news. Really, she needs immediate help, and I'd like to see if there is anything that can be done to help her.
Please- Mr. Crowe, Dr. Duesberg, Celia, Gil- help your friend make the choice to live. She could always take the medicine privately, then deny she took them. I'm serious. Her life is more important.
Letter of Concern for Karri Stokely
No one needs to die to make a point.
Sorry but she (and her moron of a husband) actively promoted the death cult of denialism in print and in the broadcast media. The stupid woman and her idiot husband deserve no sympathy.
ReplyDeletePlease make some comments on amazon here:
http://www.amazon.com/Goodbye-AIDS-Did-ever-exist/dp/0955917735
In 2008 I undertook a medical examination to change jobs, I wasn't ill or suffering from any particular problem. Unfortunately as a result of that exam my doctor called me in regarding a positive HIV test. I was retested, still positive and then sent to an ID Doc more tests still pos.
ReplyDeleteAt that point I was totally unaware of dissidence/denialism and Googled up on everything and discovered HAART etc and found a ray of hope from what I thought was a death sentence, my Doc even encouraged my searching the net for answers which I did day and night, eventually finding the dissident/denialist sites which I searched endlessly looking for an alternative to my diagnoses. I still wasn't sick, I didn't have anything but a blood test and now that was seeming to be dubious. Yes I sought out denialism to cope with what has happened to me. You would too.
Regardless, I've trundled along for the past 4 years without incident, I get a full medical at least annually for work and everything is so far OK.
The point I am trying to make Seth, is that I am a rational and sane individual holding a rather high profile position, there are many many reasons I should test positive on the denialist scale and there are nagging doubts about me being infected with a nasty virus. I don't KNOW the answer.
I enter sites like yours and the opposition seeking answers to my quandry, I have no medical qualifications at all but do possess several degrees and rather fancy I can sort shit from clay most times. I follow your blog with others and find that all though you present as a credentialed and educated person, you permit or even encourage absolute morons post endlessly on your blog.
I take exception to the likes of Snout, DeShong and all his current alter egos who seem to be battling some invisible foe on the net. The result being I only get to see the vindictive and nasty side of orthodoxy in action whereas the opposition come across as friendly and caring. for a person like me caught in the middle, I must say the allure from them is far better than you.
A part of me knows denialism will lead to my eventual avoidable death, however and quite frankly, the way you operate currently makes the decision to do this preferable from a simply moral stance.
Really Seth, wake up and show some compassion, ditch the inane hangers on and allow people like me to like you and accept your advice, otherwise I shall always lean to those that do this exact same thing.
Who's hands shall my blood be on? the orthodox that denigrates and insults me for my ignorance, or the deniers who at least offer compassion?
"A part of me knows denialism will lead to my eventual avoidable death, however and quite frankly, the way you operate currently makes the decision to do this preferable from a simply moral stance."
DeleteIf you know (or at least a part of you knows) that the denialists are lying to you and that their lies will lead to suffering and the avoidable deaths of yourself and others, then how is it "moral" to accept this?
I think we are operating on different moral frameworks. And I think we have different understandings of what "compassion" means.
Most of us on this website understand "the allure of denialism" in the face of difficult life choices, Anonymous. Some of us have already talked about our own personal experiences in that regard. Denial is a fairly common, if not normal, immediate human response to serious life challenges.
But you misunderstand the purpose of this blog. It is not a site to sweet-talk you through your personal issues with your diagnosis, and nor is it some kind of Miss Congeniality competetion with the denialists to see who can appear nicer to their target audience.
It is an author's blog that examines the history, psychology, sociology, tactics, and yes morality of the denialists as they go about seeking new converts, and about the consequences of their horrible project.
I'm sorry there is no way to sugar coat this for you. It is nasty and bitter stuff, no matter how hard the denialists try to flatter you and ingratiate themselves to you.
I can understand your call for compassion and I hope you find it - the real thing, not the denialist simulacrum - but I think you might be looking for it in the wrong place.
Repeated use of the words "the orthodox" suggest a troll.
DeleteOr someone who has gone looking for answers in the wrong places.
DeleteWhat do you say to folks like me, who despite of taking ARVs diligently still have to live with massive side effects, organ failure and possibly with not much longer to live? It's not as simple as we wish it to be.
ReplyDeleteI can say that science is a work in progress. Certainly, the pills may not be as effective as we want, and the side-effects are somewhat unpleasant, but research is an ongoing process. Denying the illness is certainly not going to lead to better medicine. Take what we can offer you. I can almost guarantee that the untreated AIDS would be far more painful and unpleasant down the road. Not only would you almost certainly die, but the opportunistic infections and general myalgia are an especially bad way to go.
DeleteAlso talk with your doctor. Many times the doseage or drugs can be switched around to minimize the side-effects.
Wow - each time a Denialist dies of the very thing they deny, the other loony-Denialists thrash about here....predictably amusing. No need to point out their stupidity in calling things "inappropriate." Logic and reason are not their fortes (see: Clarkie Baker).
ReplyDeleteQuick question for the Denialists out there: could you please quickly hire the esteemed and venerable veterinarian "Al-Bayati" to do an "autopsy" on Papagiannidou? I just want to see him list her cause of death as "stress". I promise, I won't dance on anyone's grave. I might chortle though and do a quick moonwalk of amusement however.
If anyone did do a dance - it would be the Denialists themselves.
ReplyDeleteThe dance would be called "The Hokey-Pokey".
Anonymous, if you were indeed so smart, you would acknowledge that the denialists are at least as nasty as you perceive those who post here to be. I bet you're just a troll, too chicken to post with at least a consistent moniker like Snout and others.
ReplyDeleteAlso, if you do want to make such claims, why not give at least one example of Snouts or others statements that you find so heinous?
Dear Sir,
ReplyDeleteMaria Papagiannidou died on Sunday, 15th, from pneumonia and thrombosis.
Truthy, you have absolutely no leg to stand on calling me an anonymous Troll...who the hell are you?
ReplyDeleteTruthy McTruthenstein, You are the antipathy of why I doubt the orthodoxies sincerity, I give you my situation with honesty and you attack me?? WTF is up with you? are you so bitter with life that you feel the need to assault the vulnerable? really, I don't need a virus to make me sick, you do it so very nicely on your own.
I wash my hands of you and your kind, bitter twisted individuals, zealots of the worst order. I'll take my chances elsewhere.
P.S. thanks Snout, at times you show amazing empathy, but siding with T McT just taints you.
Um, ok. But before you go, hear me out. Even if you feel Truthy McT is a horrible, abusive, lousy excuse for an almost-human, please take our advice. The fact is HIV exists, and I don't want you to die unnecessarily. Curse Truthy to your heart's content, but the evidence is on his side.
DeleteThe perceived etiquette breach of a blog commenter does not outweighs 30 years of scientific data. Whether Truthy is nice or a big meany, HIV will slowly eat away at your CD4+ cells. And we have the drugs to stop it. I urge you to take them.
As I said, if the side-effects are unbearable, talk to your doctor. He may be able to help. If you are upset, there are people you can talk to, professionals who can help you cope. These things can be managed. But grumbling while Rome burns will solve nothing.
There is a mountain of evidence of something else regarding A.I.D.S. as well.
DeleteThe problem is that every single one of you "AIDSTruther" knuckle-heads would mutate into another form of "DENIALIST" the minute after it came into your narrow views.
Just ask Snout! He's dealing with the denial of which I speak right now.
I have been kicking the Alpo out of "Snout" over on his site, he could really use a hand.
DeleteI have no idea what you are talking about, so I will assume you are off your rocker.
DeleteOh wait! Never I mind I found exactly what you are talking about. BOY are you off your rocker!
DeleteAn STD that takes years to show any effects? What a great biological weapon! It all makes so much sense now.
notElon:
DeleteLOL!!!Thanks idiot! Seth wouldn't let me post that here on this rag, let you do it though! He actually blocked it multiple times, in a couple cases real creatively too!
He better hope that everyone here is obviously as God-awful stupid as you are.
You are not a scientist, your lack of
commonsense speaks volumes.
Your idiot pal over there opened that topic with the very same brain-dead remark that you just made up there, and not much else, same as you.
Blow it off, and he will just go away. Right?
Right!
Why are you interested in AIDS again doc?
Truth and scientific justice? Is that it?
If Seth blocked you, how can I see your post? Why is the remark brain-dead exactly? Do you have any evidence besides meaningless insults? OR anything of substance to add?
DeleteSeriously, you make Andy Lindsay seem almost calm and normal.
I actually almost missed this! lol
DeleteAnyone can post here, this site doesn't require anyone to actually log-in, so nobody can be completely banned.
The posts that were blocked were the ones that contained the link to the documents that you apparently viewed as (YEH! SO! GOT ANY EVIDENCE?)over on Snounts personal ghost-town of a website.
The reason I said that your remark (("An STD that takes years to show any effects? What a great biological weapon!"))was brain-dead for more than just "obvious reasons" is because I already addressed your remark before you actually even made it, in like my second or third post, on the suject over on Snouts site.
Thats why!
And Andy is normal. I fully understand why he sometimes goes a bit postal with his posts, and so should you.
You said thus:
Delete"The incredible ability that the words “Biological Weapon” have to completely mind-fuck metal midgets [“Such as you “Snout”] into toeing the official line of public deceit whenever they are used in the same sentence with “AIDS” is something that I just find absolutely remarkable.
Because the "AIDS virus" clearly wasn’t deployed for any “military conflict situation” dumbass."
That doesn't answer the objection at all. In fact you didn't say anything of substance. It just makes you sound like a paranoid lunatic with a temper problem. I see why you consider Andy normal.
Oh, poor, hypocritical anonymous. You come here attacking this very blog and all who post here, naming Snout personally. Then you say Snout shows compassion. Which is it?
ReplyDeleteAs for me, at least I have a name and post consistently under that name.
Now, take Snout's advice and go find the solace you seek within the confines of denial. This blog is for grown ups who deal in logic and reality and are able to take responsibility for themselves, their actions and their own health. You take the easy way out and feel sorry for yourself and attack others for speaking the truth.
No, Truthy, that wasn't what I advised.
DeletePeople (even grown-ups) do seek solace in denial, and that's a common and sometimes even normal response to serious and frightening challenges, at least at first. Sometimes it's even an adaptive, life preserving response that buys a bit of time while people adapt to and process their circumstances.
But as a permanent position, it's ultimately self-destructive.
The problem with the AIDS denialist movement - the Duesbergs, the Bauers, the Ruggieros, the Rasnicks, the Maniotises and their hangers on is that they deliberately and systematically exploit vulnerable people who are trying to process a potentially serious diagnosis with huge ramifications. They spout empty platitudes of "health freedom" and the like, but as with all cults they don't deliver autonomy - they cripple it.
The reason they target people struggling with an HIV/AIDS diagnosis is that they are vulnerable - they are easy pickings for a cult which has failed utterly to gain any scientific credibility because its ideology is complete hogwash to the extent it is even coherent.
That's abusive.
How is your denial coming along dog!
DeleteYou ain't seen nothing yet.
Lots of love and light on the Rethinking AIDS Facebook page right now.:
ReplyDeleteYvonne Bender It seems Emery failed to stop popper use in time.
Celia Ingrid Farber Categorical fact, but how many are aware that:A) Michael Callen was a massive, massive poppers abuser. He told me EVERYTHING. Except that. Richard Berkowitz told me.
Celia Ingrid Farber B) Huw Christie was a massive, massive poppers user. I can't reveal my source on this one but I swear it is a very well connected source.
Yvonne Bender He did not stop poppers IN TIME to save his own life.
Ted Stearn Fpr the longest time I was perplexed by Emery's death. A young person just does not die from KS. There MUST have been a specific factor involved. I'll never know, but, if I had to, I would have to wager there was a use of poppers. I can't come to any other conclusion.
I love how the denialists claim we are the grave dancers but as soon as one of them dies, they continue to libel and slander their names and accuse them of drug use. Poppers is not the only culprit. Go to AIDSTruth and you will find examples of Farber, Duesberg and others accusing dead denialists of heroine and crystal meth use too.
ReplyDeleteWhat a bunch of hypocrites!
notElon, thanks for the good words.
Love,
Big Meany
You clowns don't dance on graves.
DeleteYou all form a circle and jerk-off on them, while Seth cranks "Another One Bites the Dust."
Celia Farber is quitting AGAIN! Yes, that's right. Now she says she is quitting the ReThinking AIDS facebook page. Brian Carter posted a statement by Liam Scheff that if you are gay or black everyone else in the whole world is trying to kill you! Celia and Carter think this is extreme. I thought Celia loved Scheff? She did yesterday, but today is another chance for her to change her mind.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I have to hand it to Carter. He does not agree with Scheff and says that every time he does disagree with Scheff, his comments get deleted from Scheff's blog! Well, so much for Free Speech!!
In fighting is funny!!
What I don't get is why we invented anti-virals. I mean if I wanted to make millions off a fake disease, why would I spend zillions of dollars inventing new drugs when I could just pack arsenic and sugar together and be done with it? Even the "enlightened" at Rethinking Aids would buy it, if I advertised the herbal medicine was all natural.
DeleteYou (notElon) played a part in the invention of chemo?
DeleteThat sure explains it! LOL!!!!
No, I was just saying how dumb your conspiracy theories are. If I were an unscrupulous man, I'd be Gary Null or you, not a scientist.
DeleteALTHOUGH, are you now saying that curing cancer is also a bad thing? Cause it sounds that way. I suppose we should just stop medicine altogether and let people die.
notElon-Why don't you go ask you equally ignorant buddy "SNOUT" about my conspiracy theories over on his website where it pretains to the subject there pal?
DeletenotElon-Why spend zillions of dollars inventing new drugs when they could just pack arsenic and sugar together and be done with it?
DeleteJust incase you missed it buddy, they mostly just went and pulled most of those chemo-drugs that long since already existed right off the shelf and just renamed them "antivirals."
Every single time a new drug gets approved its just about an automatic 1 billion dollars in the bank for the pharma company, just like that! Do you actually think that they don't know how to make money at publicly traded companies?
Ask Seth, he knows.
Heres a few honest questions for you-Why in your opinion did the Nazi's use gas chambers when they could have just shot their honored guests, or simply just poisoned the little food and water they were allowed with cyanide?
Perhaps you believe ethics played a some sort of in the Nazi's decision making?
Perhaps it was because the gas was cheaper? Maybe it was because the top Nazi brass deemed it easier on the kraut bastard who was actually pulling the switch, and thats what made the gas worth the extra funding?
"Just incase you missed it buddy, they mostly just went and pulled most of those chemo-drugs that long since already existed right off the shelf and just renamed them "antivirals." "
DeleteI did miss it. I happen to know most those drugs were not in the test tube stage when HIV was discovered. We can trace the process from research to patent to application for testing. Saying that they were hidden in someone's basement, makes you even dumber than saying HIV doesn't exist. Lucky for one company, another didn't patent the drug while it was in the basement, or that another company didn't reveal the whole "conspiracy" to discredit a competitor. Or do you think all companies are the same people?
As for the gas chambers. they DID shoot people and gas chambers WERE cyanide. It just takes less cyanide to operate a gas chamber than to mass poison. Clearly, you have a lot to learn about history and chemistry as well as bio and common sense.
Because, Anony 1, you stopped talking there over a month ago.
DeleteCan't Farber just quit....LIFE???? Then I would definitely dance a happy dance!!!
ReplyDeletenotElon- I never said that someone had that crap on a shelf in their basement?
ReplyDeleteDo you like playing expert on all topics that you obviously know squat about, or only just those topics that revolve around AIDS?
Dr. David Barry (NOW DESEASED)was the
Burroughs Wellcome scientist who yanked the AZT off a shelf at ahhh... "Burroughs Wellcome".
The drug was invented in Detroit by Dr. Jerome Horowitz who also invented a few other failed chemo-drugs all starting in 1964, namely ddC and d4T.
None were allowed to see the light of day before AIDS.
The drugs came years before reverse transcriptase was ever even discovered, ddC and d4T were brought back from the dead for AIDS by Bristol-Myers Squibb.
The drug d4T is also called (Zerit, stavudine) and ddI also goes under(Videx, Videx EC or didanosine.)
There was no need for any patent on those failed cancer drugs before AIDS.
On October 15, 1946,
Hermann Goering committed suicide in his cell at Nuremberg by swallowing a smuggled cyanide capsule two hours before his scheduled execution.
You say that you are a chemist? Can you tell me how many POUNDS (lol) would that capsule of had to of weighed in-order to actually kill the prick?
"AND NO. I am not seriously asking you that question either." The fact that the Nazi's could of just poisoned the food and water of their victims is the only point I'm trying to make. The lethal ammount of cyanide needed would be quite small, 1.5 mg/kg body weight.
AZT is not the only HIV drug. I was referring to protease inhibitors, integrase inhibitors, and non-nucleoside reverse transcriptase inhibitors.
DeleteYou mention three drugs out of a dozen or more.
Notice I said most.
AZT was indeed "pulled off the shelf" as you say, because it was already known to be effective against retroviruses.
As for the cyanide, indeed the lethal dose is quite small, which is why the Nazis used it. I never said it wasn't effective.
DeleteI said if you want to MASS poison, than it would take LESS cyanide in a gas chamber than it would to poison everyone's food. In response, you tell me about ONE person? It's kinda hard to smuggle a gas chamber into a prison cell anyway, so that wasn't even an option in Goering's case. Honestly, do you even READ what you are responding to?
notElon-The study you cited was done durring (lol) the "Special Virus Cancer Program" by a scientist who worked for the Max-Planck Society at Gottinger Institut for Experimental Medicine in Gottingen Germany by the name Wolfram Ostertag, the study is quite well known. There are "lets just say" a few problems with it.
ReplyDeleteThe virus Ostertag was working with was C-type RNA tumor virus of mouse origen known as the "Friend Virus" it was named after the person who discovered it in 1956 "Charlotte Friend".
The virus was capable of causing leukemia (THE PROLIFERATION OF CELLS) in immunocompetent mice, while the human AIDS virus is already a cell killer all to itself. AZT targets where the cells are being made "the bome marrow"? Do you see my point regarding too many cells with the blood cancer, as opposed to the already known effects of a cytopathic agent?
Google "Sigma" Azidothymidine, photo of label of laboratory use only bottle showing this warning = Toxic by inhalation, in contact with skin,
and if swallowed.
Target organ(s): Blood Bone Marrow....
Wear suitable protective clothing.
And it would be difficult to smuggle a gas chamber into a prison cell, it would attract much unwanted attention. It would also be hard to get away with buiding a gas chamber with an adjoining crematorium in every major city, unless of course it were possible to shrink them down to the size of oh....I don't know ? Maybe a microbe ?
No, I see that you have no idea of what either a retrovirus or common sense are.
ReplyDeleteWhy are you even still babbling about gas chambers? What are you even saying?
notElon- Oh really? How do you figure? Other than quite poorly.
ReplyDeleteOh! Where did I go wrong professor? Please tell me before I start losing sleep over it!
I don't know what a retrovirus is? Oh brother! lol
May I ask, what in that rinky-dink mind of yours makes you such the expert on the ANY viral agent?
Are you actually some type of retrohack wanna be or something??
As far as "COMMON SENSE" is concered along with your obvious lack of it-"GOT ANY EVIDENCE ? DUHHH!!!" just about said it all as for how much you be packing! lol
Gas chambers? What am I even saying??
You are supposedly the smart one here, you figure it out Walter Reed.
I bet that you can't even figure-out where the all the scientific fraud is in the so called AIDS research that you keep preaching, even though it should now be as obvious as the sun in the sky.
I bet that your still just as common sense clueless on the subject as the very day that you actually hatched.
"Gas chambers? What am I even saying??
DeleteYou are supposedly the smart one here, you figure it out Walter Reed."
I did figure it out about the gas chambers. You are a rambling airhead whose thought have no grounding in the manner at hand. Nor can you admit when your argument went off the rails. That was a rhetorical question.
I am indeed not an expert on retroviruses, but it doesn't take one to realize you have no idea what you are talking about. The study looked at preventing the synthesis of viral DNA not what happens down the road. What happens down the road, one virus causing cancer or the other cell lysis is not linked to AZT. Too much cells or too few cells is an amateurish assessment of the mechanism of what is actually going on.
In addition, the pathology of AIDS is known to be on the mature cells in the lymph nodes and blood, which is different from the inhibition of the proliferation of leukocytes in the bone marrow.
notElon- I'm not paranoid, I'm not a rambling "airhead", even though, I may sometimes ramble like an idiot.
ReplyDeleteYou were talking to me about "Red Flags" regarding Montagniers paper. You seem extremely sure of yourself in regarding it not being possible.
Well, the those documents you viewed over on Snouts website should have done much more than just raise a "red flag" with you in my opion, they should have actually done parted the Red Sea!
Did you really read them and take that in ?
You asked me after the fact of actually viewing them if I had "EVIDENCE" ? Honestly.
Those documents are nothing shy of the evidence part one "GO" sign on the game board. It's all just straight-up common sense from there.
1-2-3 + A.B.C.= A.I.D.S.
If you actually wanted to find such evidence yourself, where would you begin searching ? lol
Regardless if I called you stupid 1000X over, I don't really think that you actually are.
Simply ask yourself-What type of agent is AIDS caused by ? Who were the major specialists in that field at the time the $10 million was requested in-order to produce an agent exactly like the AIDS virus(es) most surely under no uncertain terms absolutely is ?
Who were the top scientists involved / major players involved in the AIDS viruses actual discovery ?
Were those major players already active in the field of virology back when the money was requested and those documents were published ?
Does the time frame fit from the time of documents/funding request with the *first genuine* AIDS cases in the U.S. and Africa, which was 1980-81 ?
I will answer that last the question for you
notElon - The answer is-"Yes."
The portion of the lymph node that you mentioned up there, is called the "germinal center" by the way. As I have already mentioned, I have known about that Wolfram Ostertag study that you cited for a very long time, do you find anything odd about it ? Take all the time you need with that, I've got faith in you man.
You are not the same Anonymous as the other guy, at least I don't think you are, as that other Anonymous was questioning whether HIV causes AIDS, something you acknowledge. You should probably get a moniker, so people stop mixing the two of you up.
ReplyDeletenotElon- Please note the dash (-)that I always use after the handle when I address someone.
ReplyDeleteNo, I have never said that the AIDS virus doesn't exist, or isn't capable of causing the disease.
I don't like the term "HIV" because in my opinion it's way too generic. The are plenty of things that can repeatedly light-up an HIV test(s)other than just the AIDS virus itself.
I have seen my fair share of people who had their lives turned up-side down "OR FATALLY WORSE" for many years because they were handed the news that were genuinely infected with the AIDS virus when they were actually not infected with it.
Those people would all actually still test postive to this very day via two ELISA's and a Western blot. I have a serious problem with that, and so should everyone else.
"... The move follows a letter to the institution's rector ... by an Italian campaign group called the HIV Forum, which represents people infected with HIV and others concerned about the disease..."
ReplyDeletehivforum.info is an anonymous web site of anonymous people. What's the basis to claim that they represent anyone?
Theis sponsors are not dislcosed, but there are pointers tot eh usual suspects as the introduction to who they are starts pushing HAART right off the bat:
http://hivforum.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5
First four lines:
1. Questo forum è nato nel 2007, dalla volontà di un gruppo di partecipanti a un precedente forum, di continuare a parlare e aggiornarsi sull’HIV....
2. In questi anni di esistenza, il nostro forum è cresciuto, raccogliendo..
3. Con l’avvento della HAART....
GlaxoSmithKilne reveal yourself!
"hivforum.info is an anonymous web site of anonymous people."
DeleteSo is putinreloaded your given name or your family name?
Look what language the post is written in! ITALIAN! And the people posting on it are patients and people talking about AIDS. So an Italian Patient Forum looks like the simple explanation.
ReplyDeleteThe University of Florence has put out a press release about the outcome of their investigation:
ReplyDeletehttp://blogs.nature.com/news/2012/07/greater-oversight-but-no-sanctions-for-italian-aids-contrarian.html
Key points:
1. They have referred complaints about Ruggiero's conduct with regard to his promotion of GcMAF and his Magic Yoghurt as HIV/AIDS treatments to the Italian Medical Board for further investigation.
2. They have 'admonished' him for 'publishing or causing to be published incorrect online news implicating the University and adversely affecting its image, as was done in the past.'
3. They have not sacked him, but have sent him a letter insisting that in future he "arrange his university teaching program with the director of the degree course, especially when considering direct lessons for students of biology on clinical aspects" and also that "the arguments of the degree theses assigned by Ruggiero related to aspects of clinical interest are subjected to more stringent verification procedures to ensure their compatibility with the particular basic themes of the Bachelor in Biological Sciences course."
It is virtually impossible for an Italian university to sack one of its tenured staff given the current political situation in that country, but it's nice to see the University of Florence is at least pretending to take the issue of its own negligence seriously.
Full Press Release below:
Florence, July 25, 2012
/ Press release /
* University, Ruggiero case *
* The investigation of the University on the professor’s teaching concludes *
The investigation has concluded with regard to Marco Ruggiero, professor of Molecular Biology, Faculty of Mathematical, Physical and Natural Sciences at the University of Florence, who in recent months provided explanations of some aspects of his teaching in the undergraduate degree in Biological Sciences, as a result of special interviews and observations conducted by a commission appointed to evaluate elements of these aspects.
At the end of this procedure, no elements of responsibility emerged which require the issuance of disciplinary sanctions. However, the rector of the University of Florence, Alberto Tesi, in charge of the proceedings, has written a letter to the teacher, making some clarifications on the issues in dispute. In particular, recalling the differences detected between the lessons of Ruggiero and the program of courses of study of the Bachelor of Science in Biological Sciences, the rector, while respecting freedom of research and teaching, has reaffirmed the need for the professor to arrange his university teaching program with the director of the degree course, especially when considering direct lessons for students of biology on clinical aspects. The rector also took note of the professor’s intention to revise his program of teaching.
Similarly, Professor Tesi has asked that the arguments of the degree theses assigned by Ruggiero related to aspects of clinical interest are subjected to more stringent verification procedures to ensure their compatibility with the particular basic themes of the Bachelor in Biological Sciences course. Furthermore, the professor was also admonished for publishing or causing to be published incorrect online news implicating the University and adversely affecting its image, as was done in the past.
Regarding the allegations that the teacher conducted experiments on GcMAF through clinical administration of the protein, the rector considered it appropriate to bring this to the attention of the Medical Board as possibly more relevant to the functions of that body.
Interestingly, Ruggiero's name has also been referred to the Federazione Nazionale Ordini Medici Chirurghi e Odontoiatri for his alleged “clinical trials” with the Gc-MAF protein.Thus he could be struck off the Medical register.
ReplyDeleteWhat is interesting is that GcMAF is achieving remarakable success around the world in many modalities of treatment (Cancer, ME/CFS, Lyme and others).
ReplyDeleteI know nothing about Ruggiero or the yoghurt being discussed, but I know about GcMAF and its activation in the body (it is a natural substance in any case). Good results are being reported by injected forms of GcMAF.
Oh boy, what a bunch of brainwashed morons! Thank God for honest scientists like Ruggiero and Duesberg!
ReplyDelete