tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post6350972744692924390..comments2024-02-25T14:29:44.021-05:00Comments on Denying AIDS and other oddities: Damage Done: Why We Should Care About AIDS DenialismSeth Kalichmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01715826946361587097noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-70772828359923296542009-04-21T18:59:00.000-04:002009-04-21T18:59:00.000-04:00Sadun, what the hell is wrong with you?
Do you pa...Sadun, what the hell is wrong with you?<br /><br />Do you pay tuition? Why are you wasting your time?<br /><br />Yes, a better suggestion.<br /><br />Go study. <br />Go get a beer with your buddies. <br />Go get a beer alone. <br />Go to Loch Ness looking for Monsters. <br />Create a new animated film. <br />Rent a DVD. <br />Go for a walk. <br />ANYTHING! <br />Just don’t waste your time on the Perthies. Man, take a break! They have never been taken seriously by ANYONE. No one! Zip!!<br /><br />Snout, PoodleStomper and others. <br />Please do not respond to Sadun here as I will not post it. I will not post any more of his cries and pleads for debate or document search on the damn Perth People. I only posted this one to get him to stop! Seriously, a paper debating the merits of the Perthies?? Not here. No way. No more.Seth Kalichmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01715826946361587097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-44083626451422627752009-04-20T22:07:00.000-04:002009-04-20T22:07:00.000-04:00Snout,
Please feel free to post all that evidence...Snout,<br /><br />Please feel free to post all that evidence that you claim I'm ignoring as comments on my blog, or to me through an email, or here, or somewhere else of your choice. I don't really care where it is as long as I have access to it. What I'm striving for is a compact scientific critique of their work. Like "Experts think that the Perth Group's work is worthless because [insert scientific arguments]...". If nobody feels like supporting me in this then I'll have to write something from start myself and let you people review it, or something like that... But actually it's supposed to be a far easier job for people like you, don't you think?<br /><br />And this isn't about me, or your beliefs about me. I just think that it's also something potentially extremely beneficial for you guys and that you should be helping me if you're really serious about "fighting ignorance and denialism". To be honest, I think that you should've even done something like this on your own long ago. But I'm not complaining about the past. Let's focus on the future and let's just try to make the best out of it.<br /><br />Or does anyone else have a better suggestion?sadunkalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05237465910243455615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-53924242487619945842009-04-20T01:24:00.000-04:002009-04-20T01:24:00.000-04:00Looks like The Tennessean changed their minds...
...Looks like The Tennessean changed their minds... <br />http://www.tennessean.com/article/20090419/OPINION03/904190345/1008/OPINION01<br /><br />House of #'s must be ripping as they keep deleting this link from their facebook siteAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-76971838685548804202009-04-19T23:05:00.000-04:002009-04-19T23:05:00.000-04:00Sadun, the Perthians have spent over a quarter of ...Sadun, the Perthians have spent over a quarter of a century distorting and misrepresenting the work of genuine scientists and clinicians. They have never done any real work themselves, like completed some actual research or treated real patients with HIV/AIDS. It is all in their heads.<br /><br />If you want to fully understand the distortions and misrepresentations <B>you need to <I>first</I> understand what the science says</B>, and then read the Perthians’ accounts very carefully <B>and critically</B> with that understanding in mind. You also need to follow their references back, because they routinely lie about what their sources are saying. Many if not most of their references are to obscure and very old literature: this means that you need access to a good medical library with archives going back decades.<br /><br />There are, however, enough examples of the Perthians being taken to task even on the net for their modus operandi to be very clear. The problem is that you will not look at them. It’s called denialism. <br /><br />You have been promoting the Perthians as having something worthwhile to say all over the internet, but you have never taken the trouble to understand the real science they are pretending to critique. <B>You are trying to troll real scientists into doing the work for you.</B> This is part of the reason you have never been able to understand why the Perthians are universally ignored. It’s no mystery, Sadun – their “work” is bogus, and anyone with a smidgeon of understanding of the science can see it. Trouble is, you don’t have that smidgeon, although you try to convince yourself you do.<br /><br />Whenever someone who does understand what the Perthians are saying and why it is a distortion of the work of genuine scientists takes the trouble to explain this to you carefully and patiently you either become evasive and dismissive or make irrelevant accusations of “ad hominem” or “lack of objectivity”. You have shown no ability at all to learn from what your scientific betters have taken the trouble to try to teach you. There are examples of this behavior all over the net.Snouthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00315836146914661895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-70204679057527217352009-04-19T21:36:00.000-04:002009-04-19T21:36:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.sadunkalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05237465910243455615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-46272523571082430732009-04-19T17:59:00.000-04:002009-04-19T17:59:00.000-04:00Sadun
What happened to your comment?
What do you ...Sadun<br />What happened to your comment? <br />What do you think happened?<br />I censored it. <br />Why? <br />Because my blog is not a soap box for you AIDS denialists. You can debate HIV as the cause of AIDS on your own blogs.<br /> <br />Let me make it clear to you why I did not post your comment…<br /><br />You challenged PoodleStomper, Chris Noble, and Snout to a debate about the Perthies. You actually said…<br />“Although I still have problems with what has been presented here as arguments against the Perth Group, let's assume that you guys are correct for now.” <br /><br />Sadun, what the f#@k is wrong with you? Assume they are right? Assume they are right?? They are quoting science Sadun. They are right. The Perthies are crazy. Have you seen that movie House of Numbers? You watch that and tell me they are not insane. Assume PoodleStomper, Nobel, Snout are right? <br />Please! <br /><br />Then you go on to say that you are writing some paper or project on the arguments of the Perthies that will be open for comment with the goal of ‘getting closer to the truth’. <br />Sadun, this is how you are spending your time? <br /><br />Are you paying tuition at that animation school or what? How about some reality Sadun? How about some evidence? Show us a single empirical article out of Perth in a respected scientific journal. Then we can weigh the evidence rather than argue the truth. <br /><br />Why did I not post your comment, Sadun? Because I will not allow AIDS denialists to propagate the myth that there is a legitimate debate among scientists about the cause of AIDS on my blog. That crap belongs at Rethinking AIDS, Henry Bauer’s blog (just don’t distract Henry away from me, it is way too much fun), or Celia Farber’s, Liam Scheff’s…etc. Put it there where it belongs, not here.Seth Kalichmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01715826946361587097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-41504646470151223732009-04-19T11:09:00.000-04:002009-04-19T11:09:00.000-04:00Why didn't you publish my last comment? Why?Why didn't you publish my last comment? Why?sadunkalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05237465910243455615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-87608349922392709182009-04-19T08:56:00.000-04:002009-04-19T08:56:00.000-04:00What happened to my last comment?What happened to my last comment?sadunkalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05237465910243455615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-27250321203857801042009-04-18T20:44:00.000-04:002009-04-18T20:44:00.000-04:00Actually Sadunkal, in his book he makes it quite c...Actually Sadunkal, in his book he makes it quite clear that me thinks most denialists are in it with good intentions. The "psychopaths" are the ones doing it to make money. Those the likes of Rath and Rasnik. The ones that promote denialism to make a buck off of the suffering of those who actually are infected. If you would like I can specify the exact page where he states this belief (you know, in case you actually read his book and not just the Bauer "critique".<br /><br />-Poodle StomperAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-42605783586132546652009-04-18T13:07:00.000-04:002009-04-18T13:07:00.000-04:00Prof. Kalichman,
You clearly still have no clue a...Prof. Kalichman,<br /><br />You clearly still have no clue about the "denialists" if you think they're unethical psychopaths. And you didn't go that far in your book if I'm not mistaken. What are you thinking?sadunkalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05237465910243455615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-28214284534526558852009-04-18T12:51:00.000-04:002009-04-18T12:51:00.000-04:00Sadun, what is wrong with you? You have aligned yo...Sadun, what is wrong with you? You have aligned yourself with psychopaths who try to persuade people that HIV tests are invalid, HIV treatments are harmful, and HIV is harmless. You are about ethics? What are you thinking? <br />It is denialists calling me deceitful that I love. Irony is one of my favorite forms of comedy!Seth Kalichmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01715826946361587097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-44881259718049367532009-04-18T12:42:00.000-04:002009-04-18T12:42:00.000-04:00That line I'm talking about is an inherent part of...That line I'm talking about is an inherent part of modern society. It's about human decency, ethics and so on... You want to discuss ethics Prof. Kalichman? Would it be OK for you if I were spamming your blog with comments written from your children's or your wife's mouth, talking about your sexual activities etc...?<br /><br />And it's sad that you love to be called deceitful.sadunkalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05237465910243455615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-55719566016644052532009-04-18T11:43:00.000-04:002009-04-18T11:43:00.000-04:00Sadun
Where exactly is the line that Todd crossed?...Sadun<br />Where exactly is the line that Todd crossed?<br />Who determines the line? Henry Bauer? Careful Sadun, that line might just be out in the middle of Scottish waters with big green monsters lurking about. It might run through Peter Duesberg’s ‘scientific’ cancer follies laboratory. Or the line might run through an LSD trip that Kary Mullis is on. Or maybe in the FBI or CIA buildings that David Rasnick monitors. That line might just run through Gary Null’s bank account. <br /><br />You AIDS denialists are something else! I love that you call me deceitful!!Seth Kalichmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01715826946361587097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-36544096118282890342009-04-18T11:19:00.000-04:002009-04-18T11:19:00.000-04:00Todd,
You also posted as Katrina Joseph on other ...Todd,<br /><br />You also posted as Katrina Joseph on other blogs, e.g. at Clark Baker blog. So it was apparently not just for proving that Bauer "moderates out the truth". I too wish you had copied your comments so that I could take you seriously. I wonder what you consider "truth". You can still tell it on your new blog. But even if it was really the "truth" you posted and what Bauer moderated out, don't start fooling yourself and begin to think that people block your comments because "you're telling the truth". You're almost always blatantly disrespectful and rude and insensitive. That's a very important factor.<br /><br />I've also seen you posting comments as Clark Baker's wife, daughter, lover etc... You may think it's all very funny but I think you've completely crossed the line.<br /><br />Regarding Casey Cohen/Maggiore, as you know I commented on it at your blog.sadunkalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05237465910243455615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-12168186060636989382009-04-01T06:50:00.000-04:002009-04-01T06:50:00.000-04:00Poodle said:"In a study on discordant couples, the...Poodle said:<BR/><BR/><I>"In a study on discordant couples, the exact sequence initiating the infection of the recipient has been found in the donor in most of the cases. In others sequences differing by one or two base pairs were found (remember retroviruses mutate)."</I><BR/><BR/>Molecular analysis provides overwhelming evidence of sexual HIV transmission from one person to another.<BR/><BR/>See, for example:<BR/><BR/>Molecular analysis of HIV strains from a cluster of worker infections in the adult film industry, Los Angeles 2004.<BR/>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16549978?dopt=AbstractPlus<BR/><BR/>Molecular analysis in support of an investigation of a cluster of HIV-1-infected women.<BR/>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12402955?dopt=AbstractPlus<BR/><BR/>Full-length genome sequencing of HIV type 1 group O viruses isolated from a heterosexual transmission cluster in Senegal.<BR/>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11522190?dopt=AbstractPlus<BR/><BR/>Molecular evidence of homosexual transmission of HIV type 2 in Spain.<BR/>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11282010?dopt=AbstractPlus<BR/><BR/>Cluster of HIV-Positive Young Women—New York, 1997-1998.<BR/>http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/282/1/20<BR/><BR/>Accurate reconstruction of a known HIV-1 transmission history by phylogenetic tree analysis.<BR/>http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=38248<BR/><BR/>Molecular analysis of human immunodeficiency virus strains associated with a case of criminal transmission of the virus<BR/>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10950794?ordinalpos=12&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum<BR/><BR/>Molecular Epidemiology of Human Immunodeficiency Virus Type 1 Transmission in a Heterosexual Cohort of Discordant Couples in Zambia<BR/>http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=135722<BR/><BR/>It's as though someone has burgled your house and stolen your stereo. The police have a suspect. His fingerprints are on record, and are all over your house. He has accidentally left his jacket on your sofa with his name sewn into the lining and three ATM receipts from his bank account in one pocket. When the police catch him he is trying to prize open someone else's window with a screwdriver. The police find your stereo under his bed. He has a criminal record of 40 million similar offences.<BR/><BR/>Along come the Perth Group, and claim that it's "never been proved that a burglary has actually occurred". It was the wind that blew open your locked window and spirited away your sound system. See, they have a theory about the wind, and the police just won't listen to them.Snouthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00315836146914661895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-79257843749122534692009-04-01T01:28:00.000-04:002009-04-01T01:28:00.000-04:00Sadunkal writes Can you please give a specific exa...Sadunkal writes <B>Can you please give a specific example of a denial. What specific evidence do you believe that the Perth Group insists on ignoring? If you can't support your claim with real evidence then I'm afraid such claims won't make the situation any better.</B><BR/><BR/>Uh. I've already given you an example of denial. You denied it was denial.<BR/><BR/>I'll humour you and give you another.<BR/><BR/>http://www.rethinking.org/bmj/response_68014.html<BR/><BR/>There are no ironclad fixed rules for the proving the existence of retroviruses or any other entity. Science doesn't work this way. This is a strawman version of science. The evidence listed above by poodlestomper is conclusive. HIV has been isolated and sequenced. Researchers can obtain pure isolates of HIV from AIDS reagents programs.Chris Noblenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-22305605430399267392009-03-31T13:12:00.000-04:002009-03-31T13:12:00.000-04:00Sadunkal,I was "lying in a pretty bizarre manner" ...Sadunkal,<BR/>I was "lying in a pretty bizarre manner" (could you be more specific about the bizarre manner part?) at Bauer's site to prove that he moderates out the truth. I posed as someone else to prove that it wasn't just me he moderated, but anyone with the truth. And boy, did he play right into my hands. I only wish I had copied my comments so that I could have pasted them at my new site which is designed specifically for people who have had their true information moderated out of Bauers' site comments. <BR/>Look for it at:<BR/>www.correctingbauer.blogspot.com<BR/>Also, Sadunkal, if you are so disturbed by such "deceit" maybe you should check out the Casey Cohen exchange with Dr. Nick Bennett. Christing Maggiore posed as Casey Cohen to get Dr. Bennett entrapped in some EJ debate. Now THAT was bizarre!<BR/>Sincerely,<BR/>J. Todd DeShongjtdeshonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09881997315363701292noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-11588302392023527692009-03-30T17:10:00.000-04:002009-03-30T17:10:00.000-04:00"My understanding is that your clones are still no..."My understanding is that your clones are still no …since the origin of the gene sequences are dubious. But I'm insignificant:"<BR/><BR/>On what is your “understanding” based? Is it simply Perth Group BS or do you have a credible source for this?<BR/>HIV is available by the hundreds are pure molecular clones (Chris and I have both linked to this before). In a <A HREF="http://www.plospathogens.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.ppat.1000274" REL="nofollow"> study</A> on discordant couples, the exact sequence initiating the infection of the recipient has been found in the donor in most of the cases. In others sequences differing by one or two base pairs were found (remember retroviruses mutate). <BR/><BR/>In animal models, those infected with HIV show a dramatic reduction in CD4 T-cells (I cited <A HREF="http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/abstract/04-3184fjev1" REL="nofollow">this one</A> at Aetiology. In the example I cited the HIV infected animal models showed an 80% reduction in CD4 cells and characteristic CD4 to CD8 ratio reversions compared to the controls, very characteristic of HIV infections in humans. The controls did not.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="" REL="nofollow">Here</A> is also a new link to video of GFP-labeled infectious HIV being transmitted by direct cell contact between T-cells. <BR/><BR/>I realize most of this has been told to you before and I don't think you will change your mind so I will simply reiterate what I suggested to you before: Go get some basic biology education. It helps a lot when trying to figure stuff like this out.<BR/><BR/><BR/>"Do you know what the Perth Group thinks about arguments such as yours...it's your responsibility to try it, in my opinion."<BR/><BR/>Yes I do. To put it bluntly, the Perth group is a group of idiots with NO EXPERIENCE WITH HIV AT ALL. Their BS arguments have long ago been debunked by those more qualified than I. I do not claim to know everything about molecular biology and virology as I know people who know far more than I, but I know enough and have had enough hands on experience to recognize pseudoscience. The Perth Group uses self made rules along with a general misunderstanding of virology as a base for their claims in the hopes that denialists will not bother to look into their claims.<BR/><BR/>-Poodle StomperAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-85513731469970066352009-03-29T11:17:00.000-04:002009-03-29T11:17:00.000-04:00Thanks. But no I haven't done any graphics related...Thanks. But no I haven't done any graphics related to RA so far. I intend to do something though. :) If I'm not mistaken the ones you're talking about come from <A HREF="http://www.adbusters.org/" REL="nofollow">Adbusters</A>. And actually I think that responsibilities do matter a bit...sadunkalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05237465910243455615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-21667884809601887172009-03-28T22:53:00.000-04:002009-03-28T22:53:00.000-04:00SadunTake a moment away from proclaiming others’ r...Sadun<BR/>Take a moment away from proclaiming others’ responsibilities and tell me something. I have been watching some of your animation. Homo is particularly good. Do you create digital stills? Did you do the AZT dead guy and dead girl images? They have been posted at Rethinking AIDS for some time. Your work?Seth Kalichmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01715826946361587097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-36671736726126296652009-03-28T21:46:00.000-04:002009-03-28T21:46:00.000-04:00PoodleStomper,My understanding is that your clones...PoodleStomper,<BR/><BR/>My understanding is that your clones are still no replacement for some direct evidence for the existence of a unique molecular entity like "HIV" with the claimed characteristics, since the origin of the gene sequences are dubious. But I'm insignificant: <BR/><BR/>Do you know what the Perth Group thinks about arguments such as yours? Ever contacted them and asked, ever tried to pursue this? I think you should try it. In fact it's your responsibility to try it, in my opinion.sadunkalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05237465910243455615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-46339584814887735902009-03-28T21:36:00.000-04:002009-03-28T21:36:00.000-04:00Chris Noble,"Why can't anybody convince the Perth ...Chris Noble,<BR/><BR/><I>"Why can't anybody convince the Perth Group that they are wrong? The answer is simple - they are a perfect example of Denialism in action."</I><BR/><BR/>Can you please give a specific example of a denial. What specific evidence do you believe that the Perth Group insists on ignoring? If you can't support your claim with real evidence then I'm afraid such claims won't make the situation any better.<BR/><BR/>And in response to this:<BR/><BR/>>"<I>So far I still haven't been provided with the references for the "rules of retroviral isolation" that the Perth Group talk about nor have I been provided with a single example of a retrovirus that has been proven to exist using these "rules"</I>"<BR/><BR/>Please revisit our earlier exchange on this topic: <A HREF="http://conself.blogspot.com/2009/01/discussion-of-1993-perth-group-paper.html" REL="nofollow">Discussion of the Perth Group's paper</A><BR/><BR/>My last questions to you were these:<BR/><BR/><I>Are there even any “rules for retroviral isolation”?<BR/>If so, where can they be found and what are they?<BR/>If not, what kind of science is retrovirology?</I><BR/><BR/>You never answered...<BR/><BR/>I also do not approve of the Perth Group insisting that there are already accepted "rules of retroviral isolation" but I think that this lack of rules and standards is exactly what they should emphasize even if they might risk being attacked more fiercely.sadunkalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05237465910243455615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-17640460638330331042009-03-28T21:22:00.000-04:002009-03-28T21:22:00.000-04:00Seth,I don't think I have any problem with profess...Seth,<BR/><BR/>I don't think I have any problem with professors and I don't know what made you say that I have. I don't really care too much about people's titles to be honest.<BR/><BR/>Todd,<BR/><BR/>Although I may not find you that funny, I actually do have a pretty wicked sense of humor too, and so does many of your other "denialist enemies" probably (Duesberg, Maggiore, Geiger, Carter etc.). But you admitted yourself that you've been lying in a pretty bizarre manner just recently, on Henry's blog. Learning about your deceit made my belief in your behavioral issues only stronger, logically. But of course that was your humor, right? It seems like you would even blame it on your "wicked, sick, sense of humor" even if you were to commit murder... Sorry but I can't take you seriously when you attempt to argue that I'm the one who's developing some attitudinal problems and that I'm getting less open-minded. Just a quick peak at your "humorous" blog reveals how biased your approach is to all this. Ever heard about <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection" REL="nofollow">projection in psychology</A>?<BR/><BR/>The same goes for you too Seth:<BR/><BR/>Are you sure you're not projecting or anything? Can you be more clear about that "anger connection"? An example for my anger maybe? I don't think Maggiore was an angry person either actually, especially in comparison to you guys.<BR/><BR/>To be honest I can admit that in regard to the lack of progress in this HIV/AIDS discussion I get slightly frustrated at times. But I also believe that I got a pretty good control on it, it's just a temporary feeling that is born when I lose myself in the details and lose my touch with the overview of the whole thing. It goes away once I can see the big picture again, which happens quite frequently because that is my normal state actually, I think. What's important right now is that it should be clear to you that this lack of progress doesn't only have to do with you people, but also with the HIV/AIDS skeptics. So this frustration I mentioned is not "side-specific". I think there is a lot of room for improvement for everyone involved. HIV/AIDS defenders take more space though, so you have more room for improvement. :) But apart from that I guess I can safely state that I don't feel any anger towards any person involved in all this, not you, noble, gallo, snout, jtd, fauci, duesberg etc. etc. At worst I get disappointed/frustrated at the "deficiencies" of the human nature in general, sometimes including my own nature, but that's not that relevant to your claim that I'm blinded by my anger, for which I don't think any evidence exists.<BR/><BR/>And I must say that the fact you asked the psychology-related question "Psychologically, anger follows denial. Right?" to JTD just looks tragic, even if it was just a rhetorical question. Be careful professor! :)sadunkalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05237465910243455615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-10145380559885327412009-03-25T11:06:00.000-04:002009-03-25T11:06:00.000-04:00Related to Chris' post; HIV is available as plasmi...Related to Chris' post; HIV is available as plasmid (DNA) clones of single sequences. As such, it is purified beyond what the Perth group could demand. As single molecular clones, the plasmids are:<BR/><BR/>1) Not susceptible to the high mutation rate of retroviruses and thus can be kept as a single strain indefinitely.<BR/><BR/>2) Can be injected directly into a live host and viremia initiated with no "contaminants" (it is just DNA and buffer).<BR/><BR/>3) Doing this results in viremia that is for all intents and purposes identical to the innoculation of animals with the live virus (minus a short and expected time lag) and recoverable infectious virus.<BR/><BR/>This has been done with several lentiviruses including <A HREF="http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118875474/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0" REL="nofollow">sHIV</A> and <A HREF="http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/MeetingAbstracts/ma?f=102225699.html" REL="nofollow">FIV</A>.<BR/><BR/>You can't get much more "pure" of an isolation than having a DNA copy of a single infectious clone.<BR/><BR/>-Poodle StomperAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-4515673530309980222009-03-23T19:24:00.000-04:002009-03-23T19:24:00.000-04:00If the Perth Group's arguments were really that we...<B>If the Perth Group's arguments were really that weak, debating their arguments wouldn't take such a long time and it would all be resolved in a matter of weeks, and everybody would go home...</B><BR/><BR/>This assumes that when the Perth Group are presented with evidence which contradicts their hypothesis that they will simply admit that they were wrong for the past 20 years. In my experience this is simply not the case.<BR/><BR/>Why can't anybody convince the Perth Group that they are wrong? The answer is simple - they are a perfect example of Denialism in action.<BR/><BR/>If people like the Perth Group and Duesberg were capable of being swayed by evidence then they would have convinced each other about the existence or non-existence of HIV by now. The only possible conclusion is that one or both of them are in complete denial.<BR/><BR/>For the record I am not an HIV expert and I do not do any research associated with HIV. I am capable of reading the references that the Perth Group cite and see that they do not support their wacky claims.<BR/><BR/>The BMJ "debate" wasn't a debate. The HIV Denialists abused the rapid response forum at BMJ to publicize their dangerous ideas and bypass peer-review. Some like Al-Bayati even listed their rapid responses in their list of publications pretending that they were real articles in BMJ. Some of us were so horrified at this unethical behaviour that we challenged some of the claims that were being made.<BR/><BR/>So far I still haven't been provided with the references for the "rules of retroviral isolation" that the Perth Group talk about nor have I been provided with a single example of a retrovirus that has been proven to exist using these "rules"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com