tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post3657929565493869318..comments2024-02-25T14:29:44.021-05:00Comments on Denying AIDS and other oddities: How to spot an AIDS denialistSeth Kalichmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01715826946361587097noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-7117285189554029472009-11-15T23:17:25.325-05:002009-11-15T23:17:25.325-05:00Aids disidents are idots, proof on hivchat.org!Aids disidents are idots, proof on hivchat.org!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-67296499899385231782009-11-15T23:16:45.866-05:002009-11-15T23:16:45.866-05:00Only idiots are aids disidents, we can prove this ...Only idiots are aids disidents, we can prove this on hivchat.orgAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-37495865171141998642009-11-14T15:31:36.109-05:002009-11-14T15:31:36.109-05:00Poodle,
If you google her name her blog comes up. ...Poodle,<br />If you google her name her blog comes up. There may be a way to contact her. Not sure.<br />t.jtdeshonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09881997315363701292noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-52871832412078070672009-11-14T13:49:37.660-05:002009-11-14T13:49:37.660-05:00Nothing. She was not at the RA Conference. That is...Nothing. She was not at the RA Conference. That is all I know.Seth Kalichmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01715826946361587097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-78986247460529299612009-11-14T13:47:48.673-05:002009-11-14T13:47:48.673-05:00So has anyone heard from Noreen? She hasn't b...So has anyone heard from Noreen? She hasn't been around for a few weeks now.Poodle Stomperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14071485010133858924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-70147680840835667442009-11-12T19:05:52.434-05:002009-11-12T19:05:52.434-05:00You guys must have nerves of steel to continuously...You guys must have nerves of steel to continuously correct the same AIDS Denialist flawed thinking over and over again. Hats off to you Chris, Snout, Poodlestomper and JTD. We will probably never pull the likes of Bill out of denial. He is as hopeless as Maggiore and Strokely. But I can tell you that people Goodle search for AIDS info and end up at this blog. Your exposure of the AIDS Denier trash certainly has fallen on eyes that have not yet been deceived by the frauds and psychopaths of Perth and RA. Thanks for coming here and helping.Seth Kalichmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01715826946361587097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-1505709472069820452009-11-12T18:42:57.617-05:002009-11-12T18:42:57.617-05:00It is also worth pointing out that if a pharmaceut...It is also worth pointing out that if a pharmaceutical company developed ARVs with significantly less side effects they would be in a position to make millions. Everybody would buy these rather than those made by the competition.<br /><br />The idea that pharmaceutical companies are not interested in this is similar to the conspiracy theories about pharmaceutical companies hiding the cure/s for cancer.Chris Noblenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-21020556117031800862009-11-12T12:50:45.329-05:002009-11-12T12:50:45.329-05:00I hope some people check out my blog, dissidents4d...I hope some people check out my blog, dissidents4dumbees to see how Clark Baker has plagarized part of this NY Magazine article and overlooks the meaning of the article in order to twist it for his denialist agenda. <br /><br />I happened to hear an interview with David France on National Public Radio in which he stated he wrote the article in hopes that people would regain the fervor of ACTUP days and demand that new, less toxic drugs be manufactured. France's article made it incredibly clear, (as Poodle points out) that the HIV Meds have definitely increased not only life span, but also quality of life.<br /><br />I am living proof that is the case.<br /><br />JTDjtdeshonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09881997315363701292noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-79377315979747879742009-11-12T08:52:01.602-05:002009-11-12T08:52:01.602-05:00Anonymous, could I address a couple of your points...Anonymous, could I address a couple of your points.<br /><br />Firstly as the NY article makes clear, many of the longer term adverse events (such as dementia) in people with HIV/AIDS are not due to the drugs, but the disease process itself, and are only manifesting now in large numbers because the treatments have allowed people to live long enough to develop them. Other events are more clearly drug-related (such as osteoporosis) and the risks of these need obviously to be factored into the risk/benefit equation when considering treatments. In other cases the causation is complex, and multiple factors come into play - for example most HIV related liver disease deaths occur in people with chronic hepatitis B or C coinfection. Could the drugs be sometimes playing a role in this? Yes, possibly, but the evidence is that overall people with earlier and more effective treatment to control HIV are less likely to get end stage liver disease from their chronic viral hepatitis. <br /><br />It is not as simple as attributing AIDS to HIV and all non-AIDS-defining disease to the treatment.<br /><br />My second point is that most experienced AIDS physicians and researchers are acutely aware of the downsides and limitations of current treatments, and the need to constantly look for new solutions. There's been an enormous amount of research even over the past 13 years and substantial improvements, even if there is still a long way to go. At the same time I get concerned about the mindset among some in the community that seems to suggest we've got the problem of HIV/AIDS sorted - a lot of the early panic and hysteria has given way to complacency. HAART has been great for some people, problematic but generally beneficial for others, and horrible for some. I think that tends to get glossed over in the general relief and euphoria that greeted its introduction in the mid 90s - finally we were getting somewhere. I also suspect the influence of direct-to-public pharmaceutical advertising in the US in creating a simplistic and unrealistic picture of what is a<br />complex situation - you get the impression that all it takes is one pill a day and you immediately turn into a musclebound extreme sports nut.<br /><br />I think the NY article is well written and deals with these complexities in sane and balanced way. Like I say, it's not news for the HIV community or for the scientists and physicians who deal with it on a daily basis. But it's important that it gets wider recognition.<br /><br />And as usual, you'll see HIV/AIDS denialists misrepresenting a careful, sensitive and nuanced story for their own rhetorical purposes. They have little if anything to contribute to the important real issues at hand in 2009, because they are still endlessly refighting the battles they lost 20 or 25 years ago.Snoutnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-72069636393049584672009-11-12T05:43:25.562-05:002009-11-12T05:43:25.562-05:00It's worth pointing out that HIV Denial still ...It's worth pointing out that HIV Denial still exists primarily because the side effects of the drugs are immediate while the consequences of denial can take years to eventuate.Chris Noblenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-22370396952487557312009-11-12T00:00:06.572-05:002009-11-12T00:00:06.572-05:00I was concerned that I was reading the wrong blog....I was concerned that I was reading the wrong blog. Comments by Anonymous and answers from Seth were sounding sane. Thanks Bill for bringing us back to crazyland.Stewartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-17554657142726774372009-11-11T23:03:51.134-05:002009-11-11T23:03:51.134-05:00Do pharmaceutical companies ever put profits befor...<i>Do pharmaceutical companies ever put profits before people? You bet. </i><br /><br />Check.<br /><br /><i>Have we known them to lie and hide data regarding their products? Without a doubt.</i> <br /><br />Check<br /><br /><i>Overall, do medicines save lives? Well of <br />course.</i><br /><br />Not really. See Lazarou, JAMA 1998.<br /><br />http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/279/15/1200<br /><br /><i>We estimated that in 1994 overall 2216000 (1721000-2711000) hospitalized patients had serious ADRs and 106000 (76000-137000) had fatal ADRs, making these reactions between the fourth and sixth leading cause of death. </i><br /><br />106,000 deaths/year in USA caused by prescription drugs. This is way more death than AIDS or the stupid swine flu. Only heart attack, cancer and stroke surpass it.<br /><br />Have a nice day!Billnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-15004332586262323682009-11-11T23:03:18.794-05:002009-11-11T23:03:18.794-05:00Understood. We are talking long term adverse outco...Understood. We are talking long term adverse outcomes that are not nearly as rare as they need to be. Things are better and we have a long way to go.<br />So, understood and agreed!<br />A refreshing discussion for my blog!!<br />Thanks again!Seth Kalichmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01715826946361587097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-2856237040155221412009-11-11T22:56:27.337-05:002009-11-11T22:56:27.337-05:00Hi Seth,
Anonymous here again. Hopefully, I will g...Hi Seth,<br />Anonymous here again. Hopefully, I will get a screen name up and running soon, as I do enjoy your blog. Let me be clear, I do think HIV meds are a godsent for many people. There is not a question in my mind that they save people in peril. However, I do think the issues in the NY Magazine article are not being taken seriously enough. This goes beyond "side effects". In my mind side effects are things like nausea, diarhea and vomiting. Almost every drug on the market for almost every condition has side effects. But Dementia? Cancer? Organ failure. These are serious life threatening issues. I personally think its outrageous and that people are not outraged enough about it. In a sense, some people, and I emphasize some people are trading one life threatening ailment (HIV) for another. Does anybody understand how ridiculous that is? More needs to be done to make meds that safe, effective and where these events are very very rare. Keep up the good work, I enjoy the blog.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-68578337506702527812009-11-11T22:21:01.650-05:002009-11-11T22:21:01.650-05:00Anonymous
Thanks for commenting.
You make good po...Anonymous<br />Thanks for commenting. <br />You make good points. Here is what I personally think.<br /><br />Do pharmaceutical companies ever put profits before people? You bet. <br /><br />Have we known them to lie and hide data regarding their products? Without a doubt. <br /><br />Overall, do medicines save lives? Well of course.<br /><br />When it comes to HIV meds, the major problem is the speed of development. What we hear today will be out dated in a matter of months. Treatment guidelines are updated in terms of months not years. The long term side effects of many drug regimens are just now being studied. Why? Well protease inhibitors, for example, were first available about 13 years ago. So how can we even know the 15 year effects yet?<br /><br />My understanding, and I have been in this for a sometime now, has never been that people with HIV on treatment were ever said to have an unchanged life expectancy. That would mean a cure or complete control. Neither has been achieved, yet. I am personally optimistic that the day is coming...getting closer all the time. But not yet. Most people I know do not suffer serious side effects from HIV meds. But some do. We certainly still need more options and better control of toxicities when they do occur.<br />Anyway, those are my 2-cents in response to your thought provoking comment.<br />THANKS AIDS!Seth Kalichmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01715826946361587097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-54773440407304730382009-11-11T19:30:50.420-05:002009-11-11T19:30:50.420-05:00The article was interesting as was the little vide...The article was interesting as was the little video they have. Cancer, organ failure, dementia, premature aging, heart attacks, strokes. Its amazing to me that virtually nothing has been done in the last 13 years to make these medications safer and less toxic to human beings. If it keeps your HIV in check, great, wonderful. But you also need to have a quality of life. It shouldnt be about just remaining alive. I look at these people in the video and its horrendous what they are going through with these meds. Shame on the pharmaceutical companies for not doing more to deal with these issues. We are not killing people anymore with high dose AZT, yet we are stretching out peoples lives with debilitating side effects. One final note, it says that people with HIV on the meds will live on average twenty years less than non HIV people. Whats that all about? I thought the meds were suppossed to now provide a normal lifespan. There are so many conflicting messages about these meds, does anyone know how to tell the truth anymore?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-19791870693192341792009-11-11T00:28:48.479-05:002009-11-11T00:28:48.479-05:00My, Billy! You sure do change the subject rather ...My, Billy! You sure do change the subject rather quickly, don't you? You also seem just as adept at cherry picking as always. While no one has said that the medication to treat HIV is without side effects you sure seem to be deliberately ignoring the other parts of the article. How about the very first part:<br /><br /><i>When David Simpson was working at Mount Sinai Medical Center as a young neurologist in 1984, the neuro-AIDS program occupied a dark warren of tiny rooms in the complex’s basement. It was a place overwhelmed by plague, a final stop on a doomed journey. “People came in with seizures or paralyzed on half their body. People came in in comas. Men were screaming—I have videotapes of this,” says Simpson, the program’s director. “Bedbound, incontinent, couldn’t sleep. They could be dead in a number of days.”</i><br /><br /><i>Those are memories of a distant past. <b>When the drugs arrived in 1996, they ended this kind of pitiless death and put many AIDS wards out of business.</b> The famous St. Vincent’s seventh-floor ward now houses offices for the orthopedic department. The sixth floor at New York Downtown, the eleventh floor at Beth Israel, the seventeenth floor at New York-Cornell, whole wings at Lenox Hill, Bellevue, and Harlem hospitals—those dire corridors where, in a little over ten years, more than 60,000 New Yorkers drew their last painful breaths—have been cleared out and repurposed.</i><br /><br />You see, scientists don't claim the medications have zero side effects. For some people they do and for others they don't. Many that experience side effects still agree that it is the lesser of two evils compared to how it was before the medications.<br />In the end I have little doubt that newer and better drugs will be produced. With any luck an effective vaccine will be developed sooner rather than later. The thing is that it will be science that accomplishes this, not flat out denial, pseudoscience, and ranting by people like you who clearly do not understand the first thing about biology. It won't be people who blindly spout the nonsense of idiots like the Perth group and their BS criteria that abolish from existance (by their standards of isolation) not just HIV but all the following (in no particular order)<br /><br />All herpes viruses<br />the rabies virus<br />West Nile virus<br />dengue virus<br />Tick-borne Encephalitis Virus<br />Yellow Fever Virus<br />the Rubella virus<br />the influenza viruses (yep the flu isn't real)<br />The Ebola and Marburg viruses (isn't that a relief!?)<br />HepB<br />HepD<br />HepC (get Pamela Anderson on the phone, stat!)<br />and so many more (seriously I could exceed the post length limit with the number of viruses that wouldn't exist but for now I have stuck to a select few)!<br /><br />So really (and I've said this before) get off of your computer, sign up for a biology class, and learn something. None of the above can fulfill the BS isolation criteria that Perthies have latched on to. Do you really think this is realistic? Please...learn something...anything!<br /><br />In the mean time consider this: if doctors and some huge wide-ranging conspiracy is behind all of this, why would they release drugs so effective that most AIDS wards had to shut down? Or hell, why would the wards have shut down if the drugs were the problem in the first place. Just use a little logic there, Billy.Poodle Stomperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14071485010133858924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-31867314139828993472009-11-10T23:42:07.702-05:002009-11-10T23:42:07.702-05:00"the drugs are slowly killing and disfiguring..."the drugs are slowly killing and disfiguring you."<br /><br />Very slowly, seems like. He apparently started treatment over 13 years ago, and he started due to clinical symptoms, not just counts. <br /><br />http://www.actuporalhistory.org/interviews/images/harrington.pdf<br /><br />ACT UP Oral History Project <br />Interviewer: Sarah Schulman <br />Date of Interview: March 8, 2003 <br /><br />"SS: This is something I’ve asked every person we’ve interviewed who has AIDS. Would you mind telling us what meds you’re taking now, just for the record? <br /><br />MH: Well, I started taking antiretrovirals in August of 1996, because my T-cells had gone down to 150, and I had a viral load of 200,000 and I developed thrush, weight loss, and some skin rashes, and I wasn’t feeling good and wasn’t looking so good, either. So, I started on a protease inhibitor, plus two AZT-like drugs. So, I’ve always been on a protease inhibitor and two AZT-like drugs, but it switched – the actual ones, due to side effects. And right now, I’m on a protease inhibitor that’s called Virasept or, the generic name is Nelfinavir – twice a day. And, I’m on Combivir, which is ironic – which is a combination of AZT and 3TC taken twice a day. And my T-cells are about 900 and my viral load fluctuates between 1,000 and 10,000."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-43648239471089975322009-11-10T23:01:59.063-05:002009-11-10T23:01:59.063-05:00Wow, here's a great article in New York Magazi...Wow, here's a great article in New York Magazine:<br />"Another Kind of AIDS Crisis"<br /><br />"A striking number of HIV patients are living longer but getting older faster—showing early signs of dementia and bone weakness usually seen in the elderly"<br /><br />http://nymag.com/health/features/61740/<br /><br />The pictures are quite astounding. Looks like long-term "treatment" is having some serious effects. Time to pay the piper, no?<br /><br />Here's the idiots from TAC:<br /><br /><i> “It’s spooky,” says Mark Harrington, who heads Treatment Action Group, a New York–based HIV think tank. “It seems like the virus keeps finding new tricks to throw at us, and we’re just all left behind going, What’s going on?” </i><br /><br />What's going on, Moron, is that the drugs are slowly killing and disfiguring you. That's why an honest reassessment is warranted.Billnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-46707254271025702022009-11-10T21:07:26.963-05:002009-11-10T21:07:26.963-05:00There are a couple of videos on youtube. Michael T...There are a couple of videos on youtube. Michael Tracey says he's smart enough to know that the AIDS deniers have already won the debate, and that what they need now is just a good PR strategy, like a big trial. Not the DeSilva trial, obviously. Or the Parenzee trial. Or a state-sponsored panel investigation with all the trimmings. But a big trial. <br /><br />Has anyone ever looked at the experiments proposed by the AIDS denialists during the Mbeki panel? They ought to be extracted and posted prominently somewhere, they're such a shameful embarrassment. Duesberg's one proposes a natural history study (of which many have already been done, all showing that HIV positive people lose CD4 T cells, develop opportunistic infections and die in the absence of treatment, while HIV negative people don't) but instead of collecting data, Duesberg proposes that people be called on the phone every two months and asked how they're doing. I think he must have asked a ten year old to write it for him. <br /><br />http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/hiv/panel/chapter9.htm<br /><br />"9.5 Proposal 4: Do most people with HIV infection show signs of AIDS within five (5) to ten (10) years? <br /><br />Proposer: Prof Peter Duesberg<br /><br />One Thousand and Five Hundred (1500) healthy HIV-positive and 1500 matched healthy HIV-negative men from the South African army and/or mining industry, or some other governmental institution would be required for this study. This experiment will exclude people who suffer poverty, malnutrition, poor sanitation. Since the time of infection of these men is not known, and since they are currently healthy, their times to AIDS would be randomly distributed from a maximum of 5-10 years to a minimum of one day to AIDS. On average they are half way into their HIV to AIDS latent period of 5-10 years, or 750-1500 days (1/2 of 5-10 years) from getting AIDS. Therefore in the HIV positive group there should be 1 or 2 AIDS cases per day, and in the negative group there should be no AIDS cases. We would know much of the answer in a few months and certainly within a year if we had 1500 men in each group. It would take longer if the groups are smaller. The cost would be one conventional HIV test per person, and perhaps a second one if a AIDS disease co occur and a phone call per person or to their supervisor every 2 months to find out how they are."<br /><br />The Perth Group do really well too, I particularly like their very specific recommendation to "Spin the centrifuge tube for many hours at very high speed" in order to isolate HIV to their satisfaction.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-91234982301733528512009-11-10T20:29:20.094-05:002009-11-10T20:29:20.094-05:00"The underlying "cause" --ahh, you ..."<i>The underlying "cause" --ahh, you must mean the dreaded human retrovirus mysteriously located in Gallo's lab, but not found in actual patients?</i>"<br /><br />Dang Billy, you got us! No one ever cultured HIV from patients. No methods are known for culturing it, for example from their <a href="http://www.springerlink.com/content/p164382l46484761/" rel="nofollow">semen</a>. Nope, patients' <a href="http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/MeetingAbstracts/ma?f=102217549.html" rel="nofollow">semen</a> has never been used to culture the virus nor their <a href="http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/aid.2007.0242" rel="nofollow">PBMC</a> or <a href="http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/MeetingAbstracts/ma?f=102198482.html" rel="nofollow">plasma</a> and definitely not from the <a href="http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=5609175" rel="nofollow">brain tissue</a>. It has also never been cloned directly from <a href="http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/MeetingAbstracts/ma?f=102216289.html" rel="nofollow">plasma viral RNA</a> nor directly from uncultured brain tissue (see <i>"Molecular characterization of human immunodeficiency virus type 1 cloned directly from uncultured human brain tissue: identification of replication-competent and -defective viral genomes"</i> by Li Y et al.). Please note the sarcasm. I wouldn't want you to be confused and think you are actually correct.<br /><br />-PoodlesPoodle Stomperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14071485010133858924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-41865636764192237772009-11-10T20:11:53.303-05:002009-11-10T20:11:53.303-05:00I keep getting this when I go to RA Conference web...I keep getting this when I go to RA Conference website to find out what happened at the Conference:<br /><br />RA2009 Conference Updates<br />This page will be updated as the conference proceeds...<br /><br />Do they not know what "proceeds" means? <br />No updates. No pics. No nothin'!<br />Maybe they are embarrassed by the "attendance".<br />JTDjtdeshonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09881997315363701292noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-19978351019788298312009-11-10T18:49:41.388-05:002009-11-10T18:49:41.388-05:00Bill, thanks for proving again that you do not kno...Bill, thanks for proving again that you do not know jack from jill!<br />You completely ignored my Clusters of Differentiation comments. Why? Because you did not realize that your analogy was stupid.<br />Then you mention HIV Culture. Er, uh, that's been done and re~done! Why don't you try and culture one of your brain cells? Oh, probabbly because it is your last one!<br />Bill, you really should change interests. This one is way over your head! Well, on second thought, you do make me laugh. Nah, just keep commenting. I could use the laughs.<br />JTDjtdeshonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09881997315363701292noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-71217724016724796992009-11-10T10:01:16.540-05:002009-11-10T10:01:16.540-05:00No word from Noreen.
My sources tell me she was no...No word from Noreen.<br />My sources tell me she was not at the RA Conference in Oakland...But that has not been confirmed. I am waiting for more info from Joe's Brother.Seth Kalichmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01715826946361587097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-633581663557175057.post-28403523724165419022009-11-10T09:44:46.140-05:002009-11-10T09:44:46.140-05:00Any word on Noreen Martin?Any word on Noreen Martin?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com